CRAIG

Hello, and welcome to Desperately Seeking Wisdom with me, Craig Oliver. This is a podcast for people hoping to live a more balanced and centred life, but aren't sure how to get there. Today's guest is one of the funniest and nicest people I know, the political comedian Matt Forde. Matt was brought up by a single mother on benefits before working for the Labour Party.

MATT

You think of the Daily Mail and tabloid culture at the time, single mothers were seen as reckless, feckless individuals responsible for all of society's ills. I mean, I remember even at secondary school, other parents would say to my mom, oh, you know, it's broken homes. My mom's a great mom, you know, we never misbehaved.

CRAIG

He discovered an extraordinary talent for making people laugh. And he somehow merged that with his love of politics, to bring people from all parts of the political spectrum together.

MATT

Once you realise you can make people laugh, you kind of go oh, other people want to talk to me now.

CRAIG

He's smart, wise and funny. Stick around to the end for some extra special guests.

Matt, it's great to see you. How are you? And where are you?

MATT

I'm very good, thank you. I'm at home. I've just been to the gym. I did then have a bag of crisps.

CRAIG

Is that your excuse for going to the gym, you can have a bag of crisps?

MATT

Well, I kind of think, I'm gonna have a bag of crisps anyway, so if I go to the gym first that's still a net win isn't it?

CRAIG

It’s still a net win. The big thing when I started trying to do more exercise, and the most depressing thing about it was realising that actually, it's really about the food. The exercise is really good in lots of ways, but it doesn't really help you lose weight.

MATT

Now that's true. An old friend of mine used to say, you can't outrun your mouth.

CRAIG

That's certainly true.

MATT

That's a really good bit of advice.

CRAIG

We've got loads of stuff to talk about. But I wanted to get some sense of your background. I went back to your book, which is called Politically Homeless. And you have a throwaway line in it where you say your mum was a nun. Presumably she stopped before you came along.

MATT

Yeah, so I'm not the reason she left, she didn't get pregnant and have to leave in disgrace. She had left already. So she was a nun for about 15 years, she went into the convent when she was 15 or 16, very young. Working class background, my granddad, her dad worked at the Raleigh factory in Nottingham. And like a lot of people in his generation got caught up in the Second World War and then was a prisoner of war in Japan for years. But they were working-class, God-fearing Catholics, and of eight kids that they had, I think her, two of her sisters and one of her brothers took cloth in some way. So her and two of her sisters became nuns, and one of her brother became a monk. So Christianity and taking orders was obviously a big part of that family. So then she was a nun for you know, a huge part of her life, leaves, and I think she was in one of those convents that had a school attached, so she taught kids as well, and she was interested in teaching and became a nurse. And then she met my dad. And you know, still a God-fearing woman, but very cynical about the chauvinism of organised religion.

CRAIG

But did you maintain the religious thing when she was bringing you up?

MATT

Yeah, so we went to church a lot as kids. So we went to a Church of England primary school, and a Catholic Secondary School, both comprehensives but faith-led. And we went to church a lot as kids, I was an altar boy for a long time. And then in my teens, around the same time that I was discovering politics, became slightly cynical about religion and effectively, although I retained a huge amount of faith - respect for it, rather - effectively lost any belief. And her relationship with it, I remember, it was around the time, must have been around the time that the law was changing to allow female vicars in the Church of England. And I was an altar boy, and during the sermon, and this is an inner city, Church of England church in the late 80s, early 90s, whenever it was, and the vicar gets up and says, oh there’'ll be a female vicar in this parish over my dead body. And my mum and some of the other mums just got up, literally dragged me off the altar, and we never went back. That was it. That was the end of it. So in a way, even though my mum, you know, she was a Labour person, but she was never a member of a party and never interested in political doctrine or anything like that. You know, that was a very political moment, in my upbringing, a real moment of feminism and rebellion, that I guess only really now I'm appreciating how profound that was.

CRAIG

It's really interesting. One of the themes that sort of strangely come up in having these conversations with people is within living memory, the levels of sexism that you just can't even imagine today. I mean, it's extraordinary really, isn't it?

MATT

It is, and if you think of the Labour Party, they've never elected a woman leader. And when I briefly worked in politics for Labour, and we'd have all-women shortlists for council selections, you'd have to try and achieve 50/50 through all women-shortlists, and the uproar… and this was in the naughties. If you saw that 2005 2006-7, the uproar just from local, inadequate men, it was just shocking for a party that really, really prides itself on being, you know, quality above all others, and really, wears its moral superiority as a badge, actually internally is just as sexist as any other party, and in some elements arguably worse.

CRAIG

And she brought you up on your own. Uh, where was your dad during this time?

MATT

My dad and her split up and my dad worked in Uganda for a bit, volunteering, and then came back and lived in Coventry, and he was a nurse and then he worked his way up and put himself through university later in life and still works around healthcare. So my mom raised me and my sister in inner city Nottingham in very, very difficult circumstances and very rough part of town. And although lovely, you know, equally wonderful, I've never lived anywhere I've known so many of my neighbours as I did then, but he wasn't really around in my really young years, but from about the age of eight I started seeing him more regularly.

CRAIG

You still see him, he’s around?

MATT

Oh, yeah, we get on very, very well. I mean, he's a really great bloke and we have a very close relationship. And obviously, my mom raised me and my sister, so my mum effectively is our mum and dad, even though my dad is my dad, in terms of, you know, who was there doing the hard work of discipline and love and shaping you and keeping you safe, you know, all that was done by one woman on no money in an area that was that was at times very, very difficult to live. So she is an incredible person. But my dad’s, you know, in a way my dad's like a sort of bonus character, because I'm like, oh my god, I'm just so lucky that he's a great bloke that we got on very, very well, that we continue to grow closer, and he's someone who… they're quite different in age. So my dad's, I think only just early 60s, and my mom's mid-70s. So I'm 40 now, so actually, my dad actually doesn't feel that much older than me. And we have a lot of similar interests, so we can socialise in a way that perhaps maybe my mom can't and that's a nice extra thing to have.

CRAIG

Well that’s nice to hear. That thing about being a you know, her being a single parent on benefits. In your book, you talk about feeling like that the Conservative Party at the time didn't like people like you and almost demonised people like you, it sounds like you felt that quite viscerally.

MATT

Yeah, and I think, and I wouldn't just draw the boundaries at the Tory party because certainly the government at the time, you know, think back to basics and things like that, was very moralistic and it was very moralistic towards particular people. And you think of the Daily Mail and tabloid culture at the, time single mothers were seen as reckless, feckless individuals responsible for all of society's ills. I mean, I remember even at secondary school, other parents would say to my mom, oh, you know, it's broken homes. My mom was a great mom. You know, we never misbehaved at school. I mean, occasionally misbehaved, but not in a way that would have ever got us in serious trouble, and married parents whose kids were way worse-behaved would sort of stand there and moralise. Stuff like that would still be going on now, and just like that, that weird obsession with other people's lives, the obsession with blaming the person who has stayed to raise the child. And that's why Angela Rayner is such a hero to me.

CRAIG

Yeah. And she was single mother at 16, yeah.

MATT

And I think she really owns it. No doubt. She's a great mom. Yeah, I mean, imagine how hard that is, you know, my mom was older than that. But you know, having to do that, 16 is just remarkable.

CRAIG

And you talk a bit about in the book, again, it's sort of almost like a throwaway line, but being on free school meals and being slightly bullied, picked on.

MATT

I don't think, I mean, certainly the primary school I went to I think everyone was on free school meals, I didn't stand out in that regard. I think, you know, when you're at primary school, it's just such small things, I had eczema, very visible on my face, I don’t think that that helped. The fact that we went to church. I mean, some of the families we grew up around were very, very, I mean, you know, you're talking about serious people who, you're not just talking about a bit of picking on and name calling, you're talking about the parents were problems as well, you know, and we got burgled when went on holiday and stuff like that. And it was all just a couple of families in any area can really ruin it. And then, so they were two separate things, really, I mean, certainly at secondary school, I felt… you needed to be given a physical token to get a free school meal, you'd have to go and queue up in a separate line you thought, even then, you know, I was only 12-13, you just thought, this feels very public, having to be… yeah, so visibly skint, I used to think this is really… surely there must be a more discreet way to allow me to have a hot meal.

CRAIG

And it's such a cliche, but a lot of people say that people are very funny, and they're comedians that they're often, they learned young to talk for all sorts of reasons. Do you feel that that's there? You're very funny, you know, I love your shows and you always made me laugh. Do you think there is roots in that? Is that where it comes from?

MATT

I don't know. I mean, I certainly felt that once you realise you can make people laugh, you kind of go oh, other people want to talk to me now. So you sort of realise, and it's a good life lesson, you actually don't just have to, you know, other people will pigeonhole you and not necessarily in a bad way. It's just the lads who play football, they will knock about together and the people who do whatever they will knock around together and you sort of can, you can believe that actually everything is, you know, you can't move out of that group but actually, they're often restrictions you're putting on yourself. And yeah, wanted to start showing off a bit, I guess. And then other people would talk to you and oh, they're alright, actually, you know, they're not judging me that badly you know.

CRAIG

And could you mimic people because you, you're brilliant at doing other people's voices. Could you do that young?

MATT

Yeah, I would do teachers. So early on, I always impersonate just stuff that I watch on telly, so early on it was football commentators and things like that, which obviously, football’s always cool. So at school, if you could do a few commentators and managers and players, then that was a bit of a novelty because oh my god, you know, you can make yourself sound like Stu Pierce or Brian Clough or whatever. And then once you can do teachers, you're like, well, that's another level because you're basically satirising the establishment in the school that you're in. So that in a way gets you extra credit. So definitely being able to do funny voices was like a shortcut, really, not to popularity or anything like that, but just I guess making your life a bit easier. Just having a bit more fun with other people.

CRAIG

We can talk to you without talking about you being a political obsessive, I mean, I know lots of people in politics, and you really are an obsessive, I mean, you, it's your life. You read everything, you're across everything, you know every detail of everything that's moving on, moving on in the world. But what struck me in your book again was this quote, you said, working in politics is like being trapped in an escape room with the thickest and angriest people you can find. And being amazed that you can't get out. You seem to be quite serious when you're saying that.

MATT

Yeah, I mean, I have really mixed feelings about it. I think on the whole, it's full of wonderful people who genuinely want to change the world for the better. And I hope that comes across in the book. Equally, you do find yourself at times wondering how on Earth some of these people got where they are.

CRAIG

Billy Connolly makes a joke, which actually turns out he nicked from Thomas Moore, which is, the sheer desire to be a politician should automatically bar somebody from being one. There is an element of that, isn't it, that it does, not everyone in politics, but it does attract slightly odd people.

MATT

Yeah, it attracts humanitarians and geniuses and wonderful people, people with really high emotional intelligence and problem solving skills. But it also attracts people who I think realise in a way, it's a sort of quick shortcut to power. That actually you don't need a qualification. With politics, you can just sort of rock up, be quite confident. Often just make a bit of a noise. People have been able to just sort of get away with bullshitting. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but it drives me mad that actually, people who aren't very good at it, often flattered by terrible opponents, get lauded as political geniuses, where actually all they've done is actually something pretty base, and politics should be better than that. You know, sometimes I think we can misdiagnose certain characteristics, so sometimes we'll go, oh, the British are, we're like this and I think, well, actually, a lot of these things are just human. On the whole, in free countries, people laugh. It’s only in places where they're scared to laugh, on the whole, that people don't. I think the danger is, I think certainly in the last few years, and if you look at some of the parliamentary intake of the last couple of elections, it's really brought in people that actually don't care about politics and don't care about nurturing it. And I know that people listening to this who don't care about politics will go, who cares? This really affects all of our lives. And if politics becomes nastier and cruder, and you don't care about the rules, even just the rules of engagement, then we're all worse off. I feel like a prude when I say stuff like this. I feel like, I must sound so old-fashioned.

CRAIG

No, no, I think you're right, because I think that what I noticed, I didn't work in politics until quite late in my career, and then was fortunate, or unfortunate enough to be parachuted right into Number 10. So I hadn't really experienced a lot of that. But what I noticed was that a lot of the people who keep the parties going, and they're kind of the salt of the Earth in many ways, because in a democracy, you need them. But then a lot of them, they tend to have more extreme views, don't they? Because why would you spend all your time in politics if you didn't have that kind of animus about you? And so as a result of that, I think we've seen over time in the two main parties in this country, Labour and Conservative, that you're picking people who are more and more, it's almost impossible I think to become a conservative MP now without being completely anti-Europe, pro-Brexit thing, for example, so… and then there was a period in Labour where it was very hard if you weren't from the left of the party was there, so it’s always pulled to extremes.

MATT

Yeah, I think party membership is a really, I really struggle with it. Because I still think that, you know, the vast majority of people who join a mainstream political party see that as a form of public service on a very small level, they think you know what, I want my community to be better. And the best way to ensure that is to join the Labour Party, or the Tory party or the Lib Dems. I mean, I think that something people need to understand is whenever you look at the leadership of the party, even in its darkest days, the leader tends to be amongst the most sensible people in the party. And that is a terrifying thought when you think of some of the people that have led our mainstream political parties…

CRAIG

Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn?

MATT

The great irony about him is the lack of insight. But there are millions of people like that all around the country, and a lot of them join the Labour Party.

CRAIG

Another quote from you is, politics of Brexit and Corbyn drowned out sensible debate and created a culture war where nuance is not tolerated. How is that, the reality of it becoming darker, much more of a bloodsport?

MATT

I'm not really prone to hate, I think of myself as a reasonable person, I guess most people do. But for a political entity, I'm far more interested in talking to someone from a different side, just talking to people you agree with after a while I actually find it quite boring, and then I start to worry, I think you have to be really careful about stuff like that. People who've led different lives, and it's led them to different conclusions, and they can always change what their conclusion is.

CRAIG

It's really interesting listening to you now, you know, how animated you are, and I agree with most of what you say, because most people would, who knew you would say that actually, you're quite a gentle character when you're interviewing people, and you are very much the kind of person who will happily sit on stage for somebody like Jacob Rees-Mogg, and have a civilised conversation with him and listen to him.

MATT

I don't have a moral judgement on whether people are left-wing or right-wing. I don't think left-wing people are more moral than right-wing people. And I think the Corbyn-years proved that not to be the case. So seeing politics erode in the way that it did, and seeing it coursen and just become horrific. I thought, I actually found the Corbyn thing way more distressing than Brexit, a really emotionally hard period to live through, where I would have friends going, oh, they seem alright. And I just think, watch the news for three minutes, and you will see the reality of these people, of the movements they've unleashed. And when you say to people I know people who've been physically threatened, verbally abused, literally spat at, called terrible things, they go, oh well. There was a crust of public opinion, in Scotland in 2014, and across Britain with Corbyn, that was just, oh, it can't be that bad.

CRAIG

One of the things that I observed when I went into politics was, it felt to me like that each political party has got its kind of own besetting sit. And obviously, I'm generalising here, the Conservative Party can lack empathy. The Liberal Democrats are so sanctimonious, it drives you absolutely wild. And that the Labour Party is unbelievably tribal, and takes huge pride, a lot of its activists, in saying that if you are a conservative person at all, you are sort of morally reprehensible. And the kind of ‘never kissed a Tory’-type of vibe and all that sort of stuff.

MATT

Yeah, I mean, that ‘never kissed a Tory’ thing. I just find that so odd. I mean, the main reason is people have never kissed a Tory is because they've never kissed anybody.

CRAIG

Have you kissed a Tory?

MATT

Probably, yeah. I probably, over the years… don’t you think it's weird? It's such an odd, and I just think the country looks at that and thinks it's strange. Why would you even think of it like that? It's such an odd way to see life, I think. But just so two things. One, I don't think there's any contradiction in being really passionate, having deeply-held views, but being able to sit opposite someone in an interview and be reasonable with them and be genuinely interested and treat them as a human being. You can have a passionate disagreement with friends, but you wouldn't stop hanging around with each other. The system failed, political parties are gatekeepers, and it's up to them to pick their best candidates to put them forward for general elections. And then the public are forced to choose between the two piles that the parties choose. The system failed in 2019, and we were presented with Boris Johnson or Jeremy Corbyn, and that is not acceptable. And I think that was part of a wider malaise where political parties were losing touch with reality.

CRAIG

Yeah, and I think another thing that is very noticeable at the moment, if you're in and around politics is that it's in danger of having been taken over by a breed of people, for whom it's almost all tactics and no strategy, and that they believe that campaigning is everything and getting in that narrow view of the world, in acres of column inches, given the you know, the kind of political minutiae and gossip and all that kind of stuff that they can chuck out there. And the campaigning seems to be everything and very nickel about what are we actually trying to achieve? What's our long-term strategy here?

MATT

Along with all that stuff is, they're not interested in the other side. You know, these are, that was two people just completely only bothered about their base and, in sort of separate ways. Jeremy Corbyn has no desire to understand or reach out. I mean, if you think of Labour being tribal, there's never been a leader as tribal as Jeremy Corbyn in the sense that in his DNA, he is completely uninterested in people who disagree with him. He's not curious at all. I mean, I will talk to people who are older than me, bright people, clever, talented people who say, I just don’t understand why some people vote conservative. You can't understand it? On any level? There's not a level where you think, I don't want, even if it's just I don't think Jeremy Corbyn should be Prime Minister, you can't even understand that? Even Labour voters who would never even join the party, but just people who might identify as Labour, cannot understand the Tories literally on any level. I mean, I find that slightly humorous. But in another way, I find it terrifying, because I think if you can't, if you got basically political empathy, then, you know, in what other areas can't you.

CRAIG

And I sort of think and look at the political landscape now and struggle to see anybody who has a very deep strategy in the way that the Labour government did in 1945, or the Conservative government did in 1979. Regardless of what you think, they had thought it through, come up with a view of what needed to happen in society, and then had a strategy to deliver it.

MATT

Yeah, I mean, I think Keir Starmer is different. And I think he will unveil a clearer plan. I think he is a serious person who has a view of how the country should be, and at the very least, will improve things.

CRAIG

We're recording this on a day where there was Prime Minister's questions where Keir Starmer was basically saying, Rishi Sunak doesn't care that paedophiles don't get jail sentences. And Rishi Sunak was saying that when he was, you know, director of the Crown Prosecution Service, hardly anybody ever went to jail. I mean, it is that level of kind of patheticness that's quite worrying, really, isn't it? If this is what they're hitting each over?

MATT

I mean, one thing that Keir Starmer keeps saying that I think is really just a good bit of political framing, is name me one thing that's better now than it was 13 years ago. And I think that's a really good way to sort of build a narrative and to get people to think about the country. And I don't mind that Labour have been robust on crime. And I don't mind that they've put it at the Prime Minister's door, because if you want to run the country, and Rishi Sunak is in charge, and he's been chancellor and his campaigned for every conservative Prime Minister that we've had since 2010, then the privilege of leading the country comes with the responsibility to sort the problems out. And if you're not prioritising those things, I think it's perfectly legitimate for your opponents to say, why aren't you? Don't you care? What are you going to do about it?

CRAIG

And the thoughts going through my head at the moment, and I did want to say though, again, about the sort of wisdom side of things, it does feel as if somebody just pressed fast forward on everything didn't it. It's very hard for people to remain engaged and feel okay with it all. What would you say to people who are just like, feel like oh, I just can't stand it, and just push it all away?

MATT

We, as members of the public, have a responsibility. And now it's up to them to turn us on and to talk to us in language that communicates that but equally, you do have responsibility to vote in a democracy, you do have a responsibility, I think, as a citizen to stay engaged on some level, and care about what happens to your community and to your nation. And in a way, that's where the seeds of hope are for me.

CRAIG

Moving away a little bit from politics. What I think is also very interesting about you is, you're such an enthusiast, you're a fan. And you also get really excited about life. So I always smile when I read your Twitter feed in the run up to Christmas, because you really are like a child, and can't quite believe that Santa is coming and you're going to have a really big meal and everybody's going to be happy and drinking and all that kind of thing. And you love food and sweets and drink and like, Nottingham Forest. Is that, obviously it's just natural. The reason I'm interested in some ways is, that doesn't come naturally to me. I'm just interested in that it does to you and where that comes from and why.

MATT

I really love life. I think it's such a special thing. And I think firstly, I realise that's a relatively privileged view, although I would say that obviously I grew up in difficult circumstances. And I think I got it from my mum. I think partly it's maybe just luck, you know, it's the personality I was born with, but I think maybe it is a little bit having gone to church and being taught to treasure life and things like that. But I just always love weekends, even though I work most weekends. But even on a Saturday now, I wake up, I think, oh my god, it's a Saturday! And I just always think you never know what's going to happen. And I think, I've always, oddly, and I can't put it down to this, maybe these things just in a way confirmed my worldview, but I think I remember my granddad dying, and his uncle, his brother dying, and he was like an uncle to us, and sort of very early on my auntie died - all sort of around the 9, 10, 11, three family members died. And I think in a way, the fact that I learned about death through losing someone that I was very, very close to, rather than learning it through a gerbil, you know, it was, oh, my God, this ends! And it's finite. And I didn't think about it in those terms, I think, but I think on some level, it did, I think on some level, and I was always pretty chirpy anyway. But I think on some level, it really gave me a drive, and in a way, just enjoy it. And I just think there's so much in life to enjoy that - Christmas is amazing. What I love about it is, I love the fact that basically as a species, we have gone - particularly in our country or in Europe - December's terrible, winter is terrible, and it's a mixture of all these different festivals that are all about saying, when it's really cold and really dark, we're going to light up stuff, and we're going to eat food we like and we're going to drink drink that we like. And we're going to make this period bearable because it's cold and dark and freezing cold. And I love the fact that we've, in adult life, still you have parties. This is great, part of the human experience is just having fun. And I just think life is, you know, there are so many wonderful things to enjoy about life.

CRAIG

But it's so interesting that that's coming to you naturally. When I also went through a bit of a period, one of the reasons I'm doing the podcast is, you know, like how do I live a life that's happy and balanced and centred and you know, whatever. And a lot of the teaching is look, realise that you… just be grateful for the fact that you're here. It is an extraordinary experience. And okay, it's boundaried by death, and, you know, there's no guarantees about what happens afterwards, there are bad things that happen, but the sheer fact that you're conscious in this amazing world. And it actually took somebody to say stop bitching and moaning to me realise that actually, it is quite exciting. Everybody lights everything up at Christmas. I don't think I'll ever get to the levels you're at, but I definitely think it's true, that being grateful for being here is a huge thing.

MATT

Yeah. And it's not just about oh, ‘cause you've had a phenomenal life. You're really successful, impressive guy. And a very nice man.

CRAIG

Oh, thank you. Thanks, man.

MATT

No, but it’s true. You're just such a friendly, warm person, as well as obviously being very gifted and talented in various arenas. And with a remarkable brain. So you just think, but if you can't enjoy it…?

CRAIG

That's definitely true. For God's sake if you can’t have some fun! No, no, I definitely agree. So I'm going to sort of bring you down a bit though, because one of your obsessions is obviously Nottingham Forest. And just before this interview, I looked at the Premier League table - it is really touch-and-go whether they're going down or not. Would you be still grateful with Nottingham Forest not in the Premier League?

MATT

Yeah, I mean, it took us 23 years to get back into the top flight. So I was doing my GCSEs the last time we got relegated from the Premier League. And the thing that drove me mad, obviously, I want us to stay up and I want us to bring back some semblance of glory days, I'd love to see us win a trophy in my life, competing in the Premier League. But the main thing that was driving me mad was I was beginning to wonder whether I'd ever ever see us back in the Premier League, and to have had that day at Wembley last summer, when we did get promoted, was one of the most amazing experiences of my life. And I know that sounds so immature to people who don't like football or don't like sport, but it's not just about oh, that was a good goal, or 22 blokes kicking the ball around, or 22 women kicking the ball around. It is about where you're from, and the pride, and you know, I first started going with my granddad and it brings back all these emotions and you want those people to be there and you think about them on days like that, you think, I wish my granddad would have got to see us back. You know, it’s family, it’s identity, it’s warmth, it's the years and years - you know, being a football fan on the whole, actually even if you support a big club, it always feels like failure most of the - you know, Liverpool fans will moan and moan and moan despite the the amazing years that they've had; Man United, Arsenal fans, you know, they’ve had an amazing time in the period that I've been alive.

CRAIG

And how old did you say you are now?

MATT

I'm 40.

CRAIG

You’re 40 - and this weekend it’s your stag do isn’t it? So you're getting married for the first time. You're quite a late developer in their area.

MATT

Yes.

CRAIG

What's taken you so long?

MATT

Well, I've never been married before, if that's what you mean. But me and my fiance have been together for quite some time. When we first started going out, she lived in Scotland and I live in London. So for the first few years, we were doing it long-distance. And then once she moved down, we then rented together and then we bought a flat and then COVID happened. So it's kind, it doesn't feel to me like I've waited a long time, but I guess looking back when you say we've been together for years and years, and obviously I guess it does, but I think we've gone at the right pace.

CRAIG

And getting married this summer, do you think that's gonna actually change things for you? Your mum must be pleased, I guess.

MATT

She is, although it's a humanist ceremony, so I'm not sure if she's gonna storm out again, like she did at that church.

CRAIG

She's not pleased about that aspect of it?

MATT

Oh, yes. She'll be very happy. And both of our families are delighted. And I'm not sure, I don't know if I’m cocky enough to say I'm wise to know that the day-to-day probably stays the same. But I think, without sounding sloppy, I think it is nice to make a commitment to someone and to… I think there’s something cool about it. I think there is something cool about getting married and having a special day and you know, all your friends and your loved ones all in the room together with you. I think that's a very special thing. So I'm really looking forward to it.

CRAIG

And I'm amazed that, because when you were going through COVID, we went through a weird period of lockdown, but yours was even more so because you were actually shielding. I mean, how long were you locked up inside for?

MATT

So for three months, I didn't leave the flat and I live on the first floor. So I didn't go outside for three months. And it's a small flat, you know, it's in London. I'm lucky that it's in an area that's peaceful. Honestly, at the time, it didn't feel that odd, it's only in retrospect to think oh, my God, three months and I didn't leave the flat?

CRAIG

And she still loved you after that?

MATT

Yeah, well, that's, I tell you what's interesting about that is, I think it brought us a lot closer, I mean, we were always very close anyway. But I think when you're only entertainment is each other, and you're just in the flat together. I mean, you purely rely on each other - you know what I mean, you're having to like, make each other laugh and keep each other’s spirits up. I think if you go through that, because I think COVID hastened a lot of, you know?

CRAIG

Let's not go too far down that line.

MATT

Yeah.

CRAIG

But you were actually quite seriously shielding. I remember you saying that, I can't go outside. And I'm nervous about it. That must have been quite a learning experience.

MATT

One, I just sort of got on with it. I mean, it was because of the type of asthma that I've got. So I'm on certain types of medication that meant that I had to shield. Now, I think my asthma is well controlled. I wouldn't think of myself as having had severe, or having severe asthma, despite the fact that I've had some terrible chest infections pre-COVID. But on that, you know, I always take my medicine, I can exercise and things. So I've always felt that it can't be that severe. But I am on a lot of steroid inhaler, so I guess they're what keep it under control. So when COVID first came out, I was absolutely petrified because in the years running up to it, I'd had some terrible, terrible chest infection, I was permanently on steroids and antibiotics. And I was starting to really fear for my long-term health. I thought my god, if I’m constantly on these things, if I can't breathe all the time, then what does my, you know, the back of my mind I was thinking, my God, this is only going to get worse. And I think my sort of own view of it is that basically I had a couple of chest infections, but I never really fully got rid of them: that I probably should have had far stronger medication at the start and that actually, these were just a couple of infections that just lasted and lasted and lasted rather than constant re-infections. But anyway. So I just thought if I catch this thing, I'm toast, and this was pre-vaccine. I just thought if I get it, I'm dead. And was very clear of that. I just thought it will rip through me. Obviously now knowing stuff, maybe I shouldn't have been so, but I think it's always better to be vigilant because I had some terrible asthma attacks as a kid. I mean, for some reason, I think we used to go on holiday on the east coast of England. If you live in Nottingham, it's often Skegness or Chapel St Leonards, those sorts of places, rather than Blackpool on the West Coast. And every time, and this was when I was primary school age, we'd stay in like a caravan or a chalet, I would have a catastrophic asthma attack that would literally be: ambulance called, nebulized, oh my god. And I think it was just that these places were a bit dusty. I can't believe I was allergic to the east coast of England. Anyway, there's one where we're in a chalet and I'm having an asthma attack, and the ambulance just isn't coming. And I must have been maybe eight or nine, and I remember my mom kept ringing and she's like - I remember, when you’re panicking, when you have a really bad asthma attack, your breathing becomes very, very shallow and there's something oddly quite peaceful about it. You like, panic, but you try and control. I remember just thinking, oh man. She runs out into the caravan park and just is like, does anyone got a nebulizer? By pure chance, there was a guy two chalets down who was asthmatic, who had like a foot pump version of it, like a bicycle pump, and he strapped this thing to my face and he's basically pumped me up, and basically saved my life really. I was like, oh, my God, you know, it's a lovely feeling when you've had an asthma attack, and they put you on that, it's basically liquid ventolin. The feeling of air in your lungs is such a - it’s part of the reason I love Scotland. When I go there, you're like, oh my god, the air is so clean. I can feel each breath doing me good. So that is kind of the context of that, I was like, if I get COVID, this is gonna kill me. So actually, three months inside, I just thought, you know, I bought an exercise bike, I lost a load of weight, I just did an hour and a half on the exercise bike every day, watched various documentaries and box sets I should have watched. It was a bit odd, but I think the motivation of like, not dying was so strong.

CRAIG

And what was it like when you first went outside?

MATT

Crazy. So the way I remember it, the last time I had gone outside, it was winter. And then the next time I went outside, it was summer. And obviously because of lockdown, nature had bloomed in way that it probably never has in this country since, you know, since we were sort of developed. So it was this mad thing where my local park had been just really muddy and horrible, and now it was just alive with colour and smells. And I just remember, it was almost like being on drugs. I remember just my eyes were like sauce- I could feel myself staring, every petal, every weed, every blade of grass was just like OH MY - it was such an overwhelming, it was amazing how heightened the senses were. It was like going to a new planet.

CRAIG

I wasn't locked up inside, but I do remember, like noticing nature in a way that just hadn't before. I remember thinking like God, is a tree usually this green? It was an extraordinary moment. And I think that that was something that we, many of us sort of locked on to and maybe want to keep hold of going forward.

MATT

Oh, definitely. I mean, I'm always the sort of person that treasures things anywhere. I try not to walk around with my head up my ass, but that was really, really overwhelming. I have such vivid memories of it, it was like a… even now I'd say it's probably the coolest experiences of my life, that first walk out. It made me realise how dogs must feel. I’m gonna go for a walk! Yes!

CRAIG

Okay, we're gonna have a crunching gear change after that dog comment now, into the, towards the end of the podcast. One of the questions that we always ask at the end is like, what's the one piece of wisdom you’d pass on? You've ranged across a whole load of things from being a child in a single-parent family on benefits, political things, what happened to you during lockdown, that kind of thing. What's the one thing that you think you'd like to pass on, having been through all the experiences you've been through?

MATT

Do you know what, I thought long and hard about this, and I kept thinking of different things. But I think, and maybe this is a product of the industry I work in, but I think in life - firstly, I think just generally, throw yourself into it. Into anything you're interested in, just don't be intimidated by it, get involved, and opportunities will happen. Or you'll just really enjoy yourself. I just think, get stuck into stuff, never feel that things aren't for you. But mainly I think in life is to not get distracted or disheartened by what other people are doing, and not judge yourself against other people. And I think sometimes it's very easy to look at other people and think, oh, they're doing better than me in this particular way, whatever. But you have one life and it's yours, and you are doing it at your pace, and you are interacting with the world in a different way to everyone else. It's a totally unique experience, your life. And as long as you are doing the things, or trying to do the things in your life that you genuinely want to do, and follow whatever passions, whether it's in work, or in your home life, I think don't worry about what other people are doing because you're not them.

CRAIG

Exactly. And I think it's so true that lots of people have a an interest or a passion, but they end up on a completely other path because they feel oh, that's where the money is or that's where you know, safety is, and actually the reality is if you're doing something you love, you can make a decent living out of it and you're more likely to, and actually, you're probably more likely to be happy, which is actually a much more important thing.

MATT

Yeah, and just do it as a hobby, even if you can't get a job in it. You know, just fill your life with the things that you enjoy doing. And I think sometimes, certainly one of the lessons from politics, I thought politics always seemed like this sort of inaccessible, impenetrable thing for elites, and you're like, well, actually, it's for everyone, you can get involved, just chuck yourself into it. You know, there's a million ways to get involved in politics. And I think that with anything, whether it's learning an instrument or literally anything.

CRAIG

It's so interesting, because what you do is, you are involved in politics, but your job is a comedian. And that's how you make money. And you've chucked yourself into that. And that was something that I think must require a lot of bravery, much more than just going out and putting some leaflets out in the in some constituency.

MATT

I mean, I think with anything, if you're not getting anywhere, then I think it's different. And if you feel like a lot of your effort… because people can delude themselves as well. So I think being honest with yourself about your own limitations and what you could viably and conceivably improve on, I think is a really good life lesson. And, you know, sometimes you won't get breaks because of whatever, and it's not always your fault but I think sometimes it is healthy to say, maybe that wasn't the greatest job interview, or maybe that person was a better candidate, or I'm just not there yet, or whatever it is. And also, most of life does feel like failure a lot of the time, and any success is usually quite incremental. People always think, and particularly in my line of work, and I still think, now you're gonna get that one phone call where someone's gonna go: here’s $10 million kid, you're a star! You know, that's just not how it happens. It's just you pick up this gig here, there, and that leads to another thing. And it all happens quite slowly.

CRAIG

And I think that's so true. I look back on my early, middle career, I would often go for a big job, not get it, and the people would say, but you did well, so here's this other thing that's half a step. And actually, when you add all those half steps up, it's actually amazing how far you've come. But the initial disappointment of not getting the thing that you set your heart on is not necessarily a problem long-term, is it?

MATT

What is the point of the whole thing I think is also the thing to bear in mind - so I've got friends, obviously, in comedy, there are lots of ways to be successful. And there are lots of quite superficial measures of success. So have you been on Live at the Apollo? Have you been on Mock the Week? Things like that. And I've talked to friends that say, all I want to do is Mock the Week and then I'll be happy. But you wouldn't! You do it once, and then what? You'd stop doing comedy? Of course not, you'd then want to do the next thing, you'd want to get your own show. So what is the end goal? And what do you do? I mean, comedy is a really good example, because online has transformed it. So if you want to be, for instance, a comedian who is also an actor in sitcoms, then you need to show the world that you're an actor, you need to do things. No one's just going to go to a comedy club in Wigan, and go, oh, that guy in the middle, I think you should be in sitcoms. You have to tell the world that that's part of who you are, no one's going to come and discover you, you have to put yourself out there. And I think that's another life lesson is, in a way, be slightly shameless about promoting yourself, and not in a way that overly hurts your soul, but put sketches out online, you know, think of really funny people on social media, like Josh Pugh and Alistair Green, really, really funny people, brilliant stand-ups. But online is really where their strength is, that sketch act that has allowed them to flourish.

CRAIG

You're reminding me of that John Lennon quote, in all of this, which is, you know, life is what happens to you while you make plans for other things. And actually, the point is to actually enjoy what's happening now and make sure you're doing something you’re liking now, rather than constantly living in the future. And I think that's something that I had a problem with, I was always looking forward and to the next thing rather than necessarily enjoying what was going on now.

MATT

Yeah, I mean, and that's, you raise another thing there, which is life isn't just work. Now, I think sometimes, if you work in the sorts of areas that you and I do, which is, they're really great jobs to have, you feel a responsibility to yourself, obviously, to do them as best as well, but they're consuming jobs, they're not jobs that you can just turn off. They’re jobs that require a level of obsession and dedication to execute them to, you know, as good as they could be. So I think there are periods in your life where it's okay to work very hard and to be dedicated and to effectively trying to secure your future in some way, but equally, life isn't just work. And life is friends and time off and holidays, if you're lucky enough, and going to shows that you like or listening to music that you like, or the odd pint here or there. You know, I was never comfortable, partly, I think, because of the background that I come from, was that I had friends who, you know, sometimes people say, so what do you do for a living? And they just say, I just work at Tesco. And it was embarrassing for them to be defined by their job, you know, that's not what they chose to do with them, that was just the sort of opportunity that was in front of them, but they're interested in culture and art and football and sport, you talk to them about a million other things other than what they do for a living. So I think that's another lesson as well is to realise that work is great, and if you find something you’re really passionate about and it sustains you, in a way I think we're very lucky, I think we're probably in the minority really. I think for a lot of people work is just a thing to pay the bills. And maybe those people have a better work-life balance because they have better weekends than we do.

CRAIG

No totally, and one of the people that really influenced me when I was sort of reading around all this stuff, talked about ‘CV values’, which is what you've achieved in your life, and like what you call ‘eulogy values’, which is what will people say about you at your funeral. And I thought that that was a really interesting way of looking at life. And so many people get caught up in having what looks good on my CV, but what will people actually say at their funeral is an interesting thing. We're coming to the end of the series, actually, you're the last guest in the second series. And I thought, we've actually gone to some quite dark places in this series but learned a huge amount from people. But I thought we'd maybe have a bit of fun in the last few minutes of this second series with you. You're a brilliant mimic, as I said, so I'm going to ask you, what do you think Boris Johnson's one piece of wisdom would be?

MATT

Well, firstly, I want to pay tribute to Craig Oliver, and all the people who set up… a great team, that make this fantastic podcast, and my, my one piece of wisdom would be, don't get caught.

CRAIG

And Donald Trump?

MATT

My, my advice to you, by the way, I want to say, Craig, you're part of the fake news media, you people are bad people, you're a total loser. My advice would be, do what the hell you like, because you probably get away with it. And you'll have great fun. And I gotta tell you, Craig, the sort of advice I want to give you cannot put on the airwaves and your podcasts, but I think just do what the hell you like, make it up. Because one day you could even become president. And it's a beautiful thing and many people say that.

CRAIG

And the guy who is actually currently your political favourite, you do an amazing impression of Keir Starmer. What’s his piece of wisdom, do you think?

MATT

My advice, Craig would be to make every day as positive as possible, to treat every day as an opportunity to make the country a better place for everyone in our society. Not just those at the top, not just the 1%, but for everyone in our country.

CRAIG

I'm quite disappointed that you didn't use the word metropolitan because I think you've absolutely nailed the way he says metropolitan.

MATT

Oh, that's right, yeah, of course! My second bit of advice, is if you're in trouble, you have to phone the Metropolitan Police. It’s the way that he, it's the staccato t's and p's with the blocked-nose vowels. If you want to work on a Keir Starmer impression, it's the Metropolitan Police.

CRAIG

Do you get depressed when you see people like Boris fading? Or do you think there's just more opportunity with others coming along?

MATT

I think it's nice to have to refresh it, I think certainly with characters like him, you get overload. And then everyone's doing them and you think, you know, I think I do a good Boris Johnson impression. And I, you know, write good material for a bit.

CRAIG

Can you do Rishi?

MATT

I think I'm the only person doing Rishi Sunak and Keir Starmer. Well, he's got that kind of management speak, that kind of… and that slightly nasally, you know, it's great Craig, to be on your podcast. And, you know, if I was to have six pledges, it would be: half inflation, get the economy growing, stop the boats, cut the waiting lists and download this podcast. Because people say to me, hey, Rishi, do you listen to a podcast? I say yeah. You know what? I listen to Craig Oliver’s. Is that kind of weird, chirping management speak that, I think sometimes I think it's completely inappropriate sometimes.

CRAIG

That was a lot better than I thought it was gonna be. And also, I think revealing the fact that you remembered all his five pledges, and added another one, is pretty impressive. Matt Forde, you’ve been a great guest. Thank you very much. Really appreciated having you and best of luck with a wedding.

MATT

Thank you, Craig, a pleasure. And I, honestly, on behalf of everyone who listens to this podcast, everyone who knows you, I hope you do enjoy life because you're such great company. And you give a lot of pleasure in life, and I hope you get some back.

CRAIG

That's very sweet of you to say and you do too.

The brilliant Matt Forde. Long may he continue making politics funny and variable. That was the last episode in this season of Desperately Seeking Wisdom. I'd like to thank all the wonderful guests and the team who helped put it together, especially the producer, Sara Parker. I couldn't have done it without them all. Until the next series, goodbye.