Craig Oliver: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to a special edition of Desperately Seeking Wisdom with me, Craig Oliver. This is a podcast where I talk to well known people about what they've learned from the ups and downs of life and hear about the wisdom they'd like to pass on to others. Just after we completed the third season a few months ago, I began talking to Jonathan Scott Lee.

His daughter Caitlyn took her own life at the exclusive Wickham Abbey School. He told me he was a regular listener and wondered if others might like to hear about what he went through and learned. The tragedy was covered widely in the media and forced him to confront some hard questions about why Caitlyn did what she did.

As you'll hear, Jonathan is brave, thoughtful, and challenging in explaining how his neurodiversity affected him coming to terms with what happened to him.

Hello Jonathan, where are you and how are you?

Jonathan Scott Lee: I'm [00:01:00] in the middle of Kuala Lumpur in Malaysia and I'm doing my PhD. Very well. Thank you. Great.

Craig Oliver: Well, it's great to see you. I've been doing a fair bit of reading around you and your daughter, Caitlyn. And one of the things you sent me was a eulogy that you gave at her funeral.

And in that you say very clearly that you want to honor Caitlyn by telling her story. Do you want to just tell us a bit about her? Tell me about the day she was born. I know that that was something that you've described very vividly before.

Jonathan Scott Lee: You can't help but have very vivid moments in your life. And for me, one of those moments was the day that Caitlyn was born.

I just remember going home early morning, a very crisp, Autumn's day, and the house was tidy. The sun was beaming through the window. And at that point, Caitlyn wasn't with me. She was still back at the hospital in Ascot. But I remember that [00:02:00] very day.

Craig Oliver: I mean, it's a most powerful moment, just for the people listening.

She was your first child, yeah?

Jonathan Scott Lee: That's right. So the first born, everything's new as a first time father or parent, not really too sure what to expect

Craig Oliver: and growing up. How was she? Tell us about her growing up.

Jonathan Scott Lee: She was a very precocious child. And the thing is, with a first born or an only child is that you don't really have any comparator.

So you don't actually really know how you're doing compared to other parents out there. But myself and Caitlyn's mother, we did our best.

Craig Oliver: Yeah. And when you say precocious, what was she, I think she was very musical wasn't she, did she show that talent very early on?

Jonathan Scott Lee: I've been thinking about this and I'm not sure about this term of talent because in some ways it necessitates the parents being involved and thrusting a musical instrument in [00:03:00] front of a child and hoping that they pick it up.

So to what extent. Was I encouraging that and to what extent was that her natural talent, but it was true from an early age coming from a musical background myself encouraged Caitlyn to pick up the violin and then the Viola and then the piano. And then later on, she just started to pick up instruments for herself as well.

So music was certainly one of the things that she enjoyed very much.

Craig Oliver: And you say that she was neurodiverse. That's quite a broad term. We've discussed that a few times on this podcast, but it's quite a broad term and it can cover a wide range of things. When did you realize she was neurodiverse and how did it manifest itself?

Jonathan Scott Lee: In some ways, it's hard to answer that because When one looks at their own child, they don't just think of a label. In fact, the very first label you sort of give your child is that they're your child, whether it's your daughter or [00:04:00] your son. So that comes first. And as a child develops, there may be visits to the doctor for checkups.

And along that journey, you may pick up a label, whether it's Autism or ADHD or some other condition. So I can't remember thinking of Caitlyn as neurodiverse. To me, she was always my daughter, Caitlyn.

Craig Oliver: But somebody at that point put that label on her. Was there a moment of that? Was there a sentence in which somebody said, Look, she's behaving in a particular way.

So therefore, we're going to go and talk to somebody.

Jonathan Scott Lee: So it was a really interesting journey because she was only diagnosed officially with autism just a year before she passed away. And those meetings and I guess that label came about through a very natural process of meeting doctors and speaking to the housemistress who [00:05:00] knew Caitlyn very well and trying to understand herself a little bit more.

So in some ways. It wasn't a negative thing. It was something that helped her to understand herself a little bit more and something that helped her to understand why she had certain preferences, why she preferred not to do certain things or found noisy environments a bit more difficult. But also help to explain why she was so good at certain things and frustrated about other things.

And I think as humans, not even merely as a father or a son or a friend, those labels can either be something that you are crushed by or something that empowers you. But these concepts are things we as humans, we can decide how they affect us.

Craig Oliver: But you yourself, you describe yourself as neurodiverse. Was that something that you discovered quite late?

And how was that, having a neurodiverse child?

Jonathan Scott Lee: In [00:06:00] some ways it was late. For me, it was when I first moved from the UK to Singapore in 2013. And I remember visiting the doctor and expecting one outcome, but then leaving this doctor who was also a qualified psychiatrist with a couple of packets of Ritalin back then, which is a medication for ADHD.

And I was surprised at the time because I was expecting to go away with some counseling or self help tips. But that began my journey of understanding neurodiversity and going through that process of learning, mourning, what I had only just learned about in my, my thirties, processing it, but then eventually embracing it as part of my identity.

Craig Oliver: And did Ritalin help?

Jonathan Scott Lee: It did, and it was shockingly fast, how it

Craig Oliver: affected me. So what had been happening beforehand, and what did it help you navigate? [00:07:00]

Jonathan Scott Lee: Well, I was getting to a point in my career, it was, where I was extremely intense, very good at what I did as a banking technologist, so very specialized and very geeky.

I had started my career in cybersecurity and I had specialized in something called machine learning back in the day. So I could communicate really well with a keyboard and computers because it was entirely logical. But what I struggled with. We're human beings who are intensely irrational, don't always do what they say in the box.

So as I visited this psychiatrist as I got that diagnosis of ADHD and got the medication to help with that. The change was incredible because for the first time taking this medication, it gave me a perspective of life that was very different from my norm. I hadn't quite realized how typical or normal people [00:08:00] Hey until then

Craig Oliver: you've been traveling through the world interacting with people and finding their behavior strange and irrational and not really getting it is that right

Jonathan Scott Lee: absolutely and I think it started to hit at that time because I was maybe a decade into my career.

And of course, getting more and more senior, you have to manage people and that's for a technologist. That's a little challenging when you can just tap away at a keyboard and do what you need to do. Can you give

Craig Oliver: any examples of how it would go wrong?

Jonathan Scott Lee: Sometimes it's so easy to just type out a bit of code and for it to work and do what envisaged it to do.

But if you try to communicate that same. Piece of work to a human being or someone that you're working with, you inevitably have to explain yourself a couple of times and I find that really, really frustrating. I [00:09:00]

Craig Oliver: mean, I suspect if you were trying to show me a piece of code, I wouldn't get it. You wouldn't understand it, right?

Why don't you just get it? It's simple, it's logical, it's clear. Is that what the frustration was?

Jonathan Scott Lee: That's right. And I've been thinking more about this in, in recent years, this idea of communication. I mean, it's nothing new to the human race. We've been communicating in different languages for centuries. I myself, I've got Chinese heritage and I grew up in the middle of Birmingham.

So, so of all people, I should know about the value of speaking and communicating in different languages.

Craig Oliver: So I'm interested in talking that about you as a father with neurodiversity with a daughter who has neurodiversity. I mean, obviously you loved her very deeply and very much, but just how was that relationship?

Jonathan Scott Lee: Well, people would expect that because we both had neurodiversity, so she had autism, I was diagnosed with ADHD in 2013 and then subsequently with autism later on. So there's quite a level of [00:10:00] understanding in that we would understand why we did things in a certain way, or why we preferred things in a certain way.

For example, we, we might have been walking together in the park, but we just wouldn't say anything to each other. And we would really love that, because that was us as father and daughter bonding. And for us, we didn't need to say anything. We would just look at nature and Be with each other but to other families that might seem really weird or inappropriate or awkward so that was really nice to have automatic understanding

Craig Oliver: and it also no judgment or problem with it but you were obviously able to give her a lot of things you know she had amazing experiences traveled the world did things that a lot of other children wouldn't have been able to do did she get a kick out of life and enjoy the fact that she had those opportunities.

Thanks.

Jonathan Scott Lee: Well, I think to answer that question, we [00:11:00] need to step back because my father was from Hong Kong, my mother was from Malaysia, and they landed in the middle of Birmingham, of all places, and I was born. So my experience growing up was so different from the typical person in the United Kingdom in the 1980s.

But I had nothing to compare it against. So that was my experience of what I found was normal. Going through school as a teenager, I always thought me not fitting in was just because I was a Chinese looking guy studying in the middle of a very African Indian neighborhood. Not realizing that more of my difference is maybe due to how my brain is wired rather than the color of my skin or how I sounded.

And taking that forward to Caitlyn, I worked hard and tried to do the best with the opportunities that came my way. So I was in a position to be able [00:12:00] to support Caitlyn in her decision to go to boarding school and also to take the kids and live with them and give them the experience of expat life.

Craig Oliver: I want to move on to what happened when Caitlyn was at boarding school.

There was a moment where she got a detention. And for whatever reason, it's clear that that was a very, very big deal. Steal to her and before the detention happened, she took her own life. But I, I read your eulogy, as I mentioned at the beginning, and there are moments in it reading it that I felt a real stab of pain.

And I suppose that, you know, to me, who hadn't met Caitlyn and didn't know you very well was painful. But to you, that must have been infinitely more painful to experience and deliver. She just want to talk a moment about what you felt at that moment and try to sum it all up. [00:13:00] It's very big question, but let's try and unpack it all.

Jonathan Scott Lee: I love that you mentioned that because I still struggle to understand the reaction that you've just described, which is strangers reading or hearing the eulogy that I wrote and being able to empathize. with me as a father of a daughter who's just passed away. And I find it fascinating because your assumption is probably wrong.

I'm not sure I feel as much pain as you do, actually, when you read that. Because as I think about the events that unfolded, I'm very logical about it, probably because of my autistic mind. I know that nothing I do will bring Caitlyn back. I know that we can only live forward. We are merely wasting our time if we dwell too much on the past for its own sake.

However, what's quite unique is that I'm Caitlyn's father in this [00:14:00] whole event.

Craig Oliver: So just, just help us understand that because I think it's so interesting, isn't it? That, you know, the majority of people Listening to this won't be your adverse i sort of assume so i suspected them it would be natural to think that this is your daughter or that there is a child has been lost and so you can feel in your heart the stab of that so for me.

The idea of you experiencing that like receiving the phone call and being told your daughter's taking a life that must have been extraordinary and devastating are you saying that it wasn't or are you saying that you just experienced it.

Jonathan Scott Lee: It's not that I didn't care or am totally an emotional, but my default is action where I am solving issues and fixing problems and doing things rather than deep in emotion.

So for example, when I, when I got the phone call from the headmistress at Wikimedia and [00:15:00] on that Saturday morning, I was wondering to myself, firstly, am I dreaming or am I hearing this head? And then I'm there sitting in bed thinking, okay, what do I next need to do? I'm not going to panic and book the first flight out because actually if what she's saying is correct, Caitlyn's already dead and there's no need for me to rush out.

I need to finish off some things that I needed to do in, in Hong Kong at the time. So there's something about. My, I think my personal character that helps me to be very logical and to be able to act pretty well under moments of extreme stress and pressure.

Craig Oliver: I think a lot of people who've never experienced what you've experienced, it's not appropriate to judge or comment until you've experienced it really, but a lot of people would make the assumption.

That, you know, the bottom would have fallen out of their world and that they were in complete chaos that suddenly you used a phrase, which I thought was very [00:16:00] interesting, was that this sense of disordered nature, that the world had gone the wrong direction. We're supposed to die before our children. And yet there's a disordered nature event.

So that didn't happen to you. You didn't have that sense of like the bottom has fallen out of my world. And I think that came later. And I like those two words,

Jonathan Scott Lee: actually, the Voray. Think about it because it's hard for me to even describe it further than

Craig Oliver: disordered nature.

Jonathan Scott Lee: That's right. The sense that it's a bit.

unusual for a father to be burying his own daughter, but it does happen and people get through it and there's stuff that needs to be done in order for that to happen.

Craig Oliver: And of course that's true on a logical level, you're 100 percent right, the world still turns. People still exist. They live after their Children have died.

So what I guess what I'm trying to do is understand when you say there were moments where you came to a point [00:17:00] of, you know, where it did hit you. Did it help us understand that I'm not sure I've

Jonathan Scott Lee: had that full extent of emotion that you've just described. But I remember small events. So a couple of days later when I did get it.

On the plane to fly from hong kong at the time to the uk it was only when i sat down in my seat on the airplane at hong kong international airport that i started to cry.

Craig Oliver: So a lot of people would interpret that as shock they would say that you're in shock and suddenly there's something that's just so great that your brain can't quite process it and eventually there's a moment where it's like okay this is real you seem to be suggesting that that's not what it was for you.

you

Jonathan Scott Lee: It could have been, but whatever it was, or however I acted or process grief, what I've learned in this past year is that it's, it's all very personal. So in many ways, it matters not how a single [00:18:00] individual. Approaches grief or responds to it, what matters is how it impacts other people and how we can move forward from this moment, because as I mentioned, there's very little, nothing we can

Craig Oliver: do about the past.

Yeah, but I guess what I would say, I may have misunderstood you, but I would say, actually, it doesn't matter how I process it or how other people around you process it, what I think matters is how do you, as, Jonathan, her father, and her mother, and the people who are close to her, that's what matters. I think that one of the things we talk about on this podcast is reaching a point of acceptance, of accepting that things have happened.

And it seems to me that you got to the acceptance point. Because of the way your brain is structured, perhaps more quickly than other people do.

Jonathan Scott Lee: Very quickly, yes. And I sometimes worry whether I have processed things, or whether it's going to hit me three or four years down the line. Because it's not that, how long ago [00:19:00] is it now?

Just over a year, so looking at 13 months now, in fact, quite soon after this happened, I was reminded of a quote that your ex boss, David Cameron, and it was in 2005, actually, so if you remember, he had a son, Ivan, who had disabilities, epilepsy, and David Cameron back then, he said about grief, and you're depressed for a while because you're grieving for the difference between.

Your hopes and the reality and that struck me in the early days because he was so spot on This process of grief is that delta between the reality that's facing you today versus what your own mind had envisaged for the future and people who can process that delta that that difference quickly seem to be able to process grief quickly.

Craig Oliver: And you said something that struck me i don't want to be [00:20:00] one of those people the process is grief in an angry way which is an interesting statement isn't it because in some ways. There's nothing really you can do about if you're angry or not, or emotion that floods through you, but tell me about that consciously not wanting to be angry.

Jonathan Scott Lee: I would challenge what you've said, because I think there is things, there are things that we can do to control our own emotions and our own responses.

Craig Oliver: I think there are, but is it necessary in that moment where you've had such a devastating thing, can you control them at that moment? I think we should be able to, us humans, we're

Jonathan Scott Lee: very.

adaptable. Now we may lash out, we may blame, we may seek purpose, but to me all of those things are not very rational. The lens through which I live my life is a very rational one. So I knew that blaming anyone, trying to find faults, or even trying to understand what happened, none [00:21:00] of that really matters to me, because nothing I do matters.

Would do, would

Craig Oliver: turn

Jonathan Scott Lee: time

Craig Oliver: back. I can totally see that. And it's interesting, we spoke to Mo Gowda in a previous episode of this and he talked about a crucial moment where the authorities were saying to him, look, do you want us to sort of discipline or prosecute the people who are responsible for your son's death?

It was a medical issue. And his wife said to him, you know, it's Will it bring Ali back? And of course, the answer to that was no. But I think that it was interesting that you kind of recognized that early on. I can imagine a situation where my brain in those that situation just went into overdrive. And I just try to pick over the evidence of the past and try to analyze everything and say, Was there a clue I'd missed?

Jonathan Scott Lee: So what I'm interested

Craig Oliver: in, Craig, is like,

what? Why does your brain do that? Why does that seem to be the [00:22:00] normal,

typical thing that humans do? Do you know? I don't know. I think what you're getting to is something very, very profound. Which is, we can't really do anything about our own psychology or the way that our brain is structured and therefore we operate.

And that some people have their brains structured in a way like you, which means that they process things in a certain way. And other people have their brains structured in a way like me. And actually. Just being an open and honest and discussing that is really really helpful so i think that i can imagine some people suggesting that somehow the way in which you processed it was wrong but of course it's not wrong it's just you can only process it in the way that you can process it and actually to you you look at me saying how i might process it as not wrong but That's strange to me.

So I'm

really fascinated because it's your reaction. Let's

Craig Oliver: discuss it

Jonathan Scott Lee: seems to be what most humans and [00:23:00] people think. And I genuinely struggle to understand this norm

Craig Oliver: you describe in an article. I think you wrote for the Sunday Times where you discovered in a diary that Caitlyn had written that she'd self harmed and you chosen at that moment not to raise it with her beforehand.

I wonder if that was something that you processed afterwards in the context of her having taken a life, how you felt having made that choice and why you did at the time. It's not a judgment. I think it's a perfectly rational thing to do with a teenage child is that sometimes you have to allow certain things and allow space, but just tell us about that.

Jonathan Scott Lee: I remember again, really clearly, it was when we had just moved to Hong Kong, and I just happened to, to glance on this diary and the page was, was open. And for some reason I glanced at having to wear friendship bracelets to hide cuts. And at that moment, I didn't [00:24:00] really know what to do, actually. So I didn't raise it.

And yes, I could. be dwelling on the fact that I didn't raise it and blaming myself and thinking what if. The way I've rationalized all these events is that actually we never know when is our time or the time of our loved ones because if Caitlyn were not to die at this point in time it could have been something else.

It could have been a plane crash or a car accident or a medical issue, and that could happen to any one of us. So I've wondered about what would be the lesson that I've learned through all of this. And I wonder whether it's less about suicide or autism, my daughter, and simply more about just appreciating every single day in life that we have.

Craig Oliver: Yes, the blessing of being alive and being grateful for it.

Jonathan Scott Lee: Yeah, so [00:25:00] I think I've resolved pretty quickly. I committed after this event to go to bed at the end of the day and to wake up the next morning and just to do the very best for the next 24 hours and just to keep repeating that fairly consistently.

simple process of going

Craig Oliver: to sleep, waking up. That's something that's incredibly profound because I think that a lot of very wise people say it is easy to say and very, very hard to do though, isn't it?

Jonathan Scott Lee: It is. It is, which is why I wonder whether breaking it down into daily chunks works. I mean, for me, it certainly does.

Well, just, just telling myself I'm going to go to bed and Wake up the next morning and just do the very best with the day that lies ahead and. I suppose the word for all of that is perseverance. It's something that's really close to a lot of thoughts that I've been [00:26:00] having. That quality of just continuing, no matter what, despite difficulties or obstacles.

Craig Oliver: Richard Coles also spoke to us and he said, you know, no matter how bad it is, Keep going. And the other person who sort of said a similar thing was, you know, Winston Churchill said, when you're going through hell, keep going. And I think what they were both trying to say is, look, it will get better. It will change.

It will shift. And if you can just motivate yourself to move forward, no matter how bleak and how dark something is, there will be better days ahead. Is that what you're saying?

Jonathan Scott Lee: It is partly, although even things getting better is not guaranteed, like things could well get worse, but still being resolved to continue day to day, that is what matters, because things might get worse and things might end up terribly, but if you have the integrity to keep going, at

Craig Oliver: least you've been true to yourself.[00:27:00]

What's interesting is having talked to other people, though, and some of whom have had very, very great loss as well, is that they've said, Effectively, I'm paraphrasing, you know, I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy, it was an extraordinarily painful experience, but I can see that having experienced it, it's given me a perspective and understanding, and that moving forward, I'm able to share that and able to speak to people.

And. It's difficult saying I'm a better person, but that you just have a more rounded understanding, willingness to engage with others. So in a strange way, there is a real positive outcome. Is that something you agree with? Or do you,

Jonathan Scott Lee: I remember reading, I think it was a philosopher, Albert Camus, and he was arguing that we cannot fully.

judge or understand life until we experience its entirety, and that includes death. And it's a bit of an interesting way of thinking about the judgment of, of whether [00:28:00] someone's lived a good life or not. But there's an absurdity to that as well, because that necessitates a judgment of what life was like beyond the life that we know now.

I wonder whether people look back on events like this with regret, or whether it just becomes part of one's narrative. Like I mentioned, we can't change the past, so we can only but live forward. And we have the agency. To decide how events affect us and we have the agency to be positive about it or be crushed by events.

Craig Oliver: And I'm not trying to be too clever clever here, but in your eulogy, you wrote Caitlyn will live on in people's hearts and urge everyone to honor Caitlyn by thriving on earth and telling her story. And I read that as like, taking comfort, some comfort, that somehow there is [00:29:00] some kind of spiritual, a difficult world or whatever, but some sense in which a person can live on and continue to affect things, which did feel to me slightly in contrast to the, she's gone and that's it.

Jonathan Scott Lee: I mean, as a person and as a living being, Caitlyn's. No longer here. But when I wrote those other words, those were part of my eulogy, which I gave at Caitlyn's funeral. And what was different about Caitlyn's funeral was that it was absolutely packed with friends and family. But also the schools as well, and there was some press present and senior figures that I hadn't seen for a while.

But I also knew that much of the people who were attending were Caitlyn's friends and loved ones. And these are just children who are processing grief for themselves. Yes, I'm Caitlyn's father, uh, so people naturally [00:30:00] assume that there should be a lot of empathy and sympathy for myself and Caitlyn's mother.

But actually, I felt like I needed to be there for Caitlyn's friends, as well. And to communicate A message of hope for them and it's something that I think the words are still valid and still true it plants that genesis and a plant a seed that could be a genesis of hope for many who Kate and loved and for many who who loves Caitlyn.

Craig Oliver: I think your response so soon after she died and being thoughtful about her classmates and whatever is incredibly laudable and to do that I think is a great thing. I also think with my. former journalist hat on and you standing in front of the congregation, you mentioned the school and the people there, I imagine they were quite nervous of you.

Is this person going to go off and start saying it's somehow everybody else's fault and the school's fault and that kind of thing? Did you pick that up?

I

Craig Oliver: think I did. [00:31:00]

And the heads, you know, the headmistresses of various schools were in attendance. So were some parents, so were Keaton's friends, family as well.

And I think that nervousness continues, by the way, because people aren't too sure what to make of me. Is he being genuine? Is he

Craig Oliver: for himself. And is he going to cause damage to us by criticizing us?

Jonathan Scott Lee: Well, in recent months, I sat down for a coffee with the chairman of the school, the school council, and I said to him that whether we like it or not, the name Caitlyn Scott Lee will now forever be associated with Wickham Abbey.

So the only thing we can do is do something with that. And you can either push against it and try to hide it, or we can do something productive. And positive i'm not sure what that is [00:32:00] yet. I think I think there still continues to be some nervousness, but I really am not out to get anyone i'm just cadence father at the end of the day

Craig Oliver: we're coming towards the end of the discussion and at the end we always ask people that you what's the one piece of wisdom in some ways you may have already answered it you talked about what you felt you learned from the whole experience and that was to keep going and that you describing getting up in the morning is that the one piece of wisdom that you pass on to people or would you refine it or change it in any way.

Jonathan Scott Lee: No, I think that is that one. So mid forties and as I speak to you today, Craig, I think my bit of wisdom would be to make an active choice to persevere no matter what challenges might come your way in life. There's only so much that we can choose in life, but we do have the agency to, to control our response and our attitude to things.

[00:33:00] But I'm also old enough or hopefully wise enough to know that I don't have all the answers either. So if we were to be speaking in another five or ten years time, I'm sure things would continue to change. But perhaps that's what this podcast is about. It isn't just about one answer. It's that

Craig Oliver: journey. I think that's absolutely right.

And I think it is a journey and a process and things become magnified or amplified or reduced as things go. And things that are important that you feel you've learned at work at a certain stage and then other things come into view and it's definitely part of that. I just wanted to say that what I think is really, really interesting about this podcast is that we're talking about.

You know, a devastating moment, like a child dying, and I think most people would feel that that was just, uh, something that they would really struggle to cope with. What's really fascinating about what you're doing is saying, I have a different way of thinking about things, and different way of [00:34:00] approaching things, and of course it was a devastating and massive moment in my life, it's just that I look and process things differently, and I think that there's something incredibly profound in understanding different groups of human beings, Trying to understand how other groups in human beings look at things, because it's only by doing that and having the imagination to try and reach into a way of thinking.

And we may not even be able to work it out. You said to me that some of my reactions seem completely barking to you, but you know, we may not be able to work it out, but at least we can see that that's there and that's real. So to me, there's something very, very profound in that. And so. that's a real gift that you're giving people, particularly after the experience that you've been through.

Jonathan Scott Lee: You're too kind. I never saw it as a gift. I'm just a father and just a human trying to figure out life one day, one day at a time. I think the last quote I'd love to leave [00:35:00] you with is something that Nelson Mandela once said, which is he said something along the lines of the greatest. Glory in living lies, not, not in never falling, but in rising every time we fall.

Perhaps that's something that we could hold fast to, no matter what comes our way.

Craig Oliver: I'm pretty clear that listening to him on a lot of stuff is a way to find wisdom. So that's a really excellent way to finish it. And thank you for finding something so crisp and clean to sum up what you've been saying. So Jonathan Scott Lee, thank you so much.

It's been a pleasure talking to you.

Jonathan Scott Lee: Likewise a great golfer

Craig Oliver: thank

you

Craig Oliver: thank you to jonathan scott lee it takes real courage to be so vulnerable i really appreciated him explaining how is neurodiversity affected how he is dealt with Caitlyn taking a life. It's only by being open about the hardest of things that we can understand each other better.

Jonathan didn't tell me that he and his partner were expecting a [00:36:00] baby. But after we spoke, he sent me a picture of newborn Astrid, with the message, I feel blessed in spite of the path of life thus far. After being through so much, I'm glad he feels blessed. And sent Jonathan, Astrid, and their wider family love and best wishes.

If you've been affected by discussions of suicide, you can find help at the Samaritans website, samaritans. org. We'll be back with a new series in the not too distant future. In the meantime, why not go back and listen to some amazing episodes with some great guests, and if you like what you hear, leave a review or share the link with a friend.

Until next time, goodbye.