Kenny’s website

Kenny on The World’s Principled Leaders Series

CRAIG

Hello, and welcome to Desperately Seeking Wisdom, with me, Craig Oliver. This is a podcast for people who want to live a simpler, more fulfilled life, but aren’t sure how to get there. A little while back I hit the buffers, and I decided to look for a different, better way of living. So, for Desperately Seeking Wisdom, I’ve been talking to some wise people. People who’ve managed to change or have had change forced upon them. What was the wisdom that got them through it? What would they say that would help others, who like me, were struggling?

KENNY

When you're in a situation and you have nothing and you're at rock bottom, a lot of things that people care about, you understand it's just vanity, and it's not like a case of I need to read a book about this or anything else. I know this in my soul.

CRAIG

Joining me today is Kenny Imafidon. Just over 10 years ago, Kenny was released from prison, after being acquitted for a murder he did not commit. In the decade since then, he’s forged a career as an award-winning social entrepreneur and campaigner. He’s the co-founder & Managing Director of the ClearView Research consultancy and is a trustee of several charities. Before we get to the time in prison and all that kind of thing, I just wanna hear about some of your early years, how you grew up, what kind of kid you were.

KENNY

Yeah, so in terms of early years, I grew up, me and just with my mum and my little brother, so we lived in a single parent household. I grew up in Peckham, in southeast London and grew up there during a time before there was all the gentrification that has taken place, so there was a lot of issues, a lot of crime. It’s the area which nobody wanted to move into.

And when you kind of told people you were from there, people kind of give you that look like, ‘Oh, wow. Yeah, I feel sorry for you’. Yeah, so that's a lot of my growing up, so I've seen a lot of the issues of that have - that people talk about in society, of - and seeing that through my own eyes in terms of just people who have been addicted to drugs or alcohol, who just - growing up on the streets. Seen a lot of people living, growing up in poverty, so yeah.

CRAIG

Did you like it? Do you, do you look back with happy memories?

KENNY

Yeah, no, got a lot of happy memories in Peckham. I think for me, it’s - what people forget, when you grew up in something, you learned just to adapt and understand this is your reality, and you learn to make the most of it. So for me, it was very much about, you had friends, right. Just I still had a great childhood, I still have very positive memories, like growing up. It's just at the same time, you're also not shielded or sheltered from a lot of the harsh truth of reality.

CRAIG

And how was your mum? How did she treat you as a - you were growing up? What was her style of parenting?

KENNY

Certainly, very, very much child-centred. So we were very free to explore, be curious and try different stuff. So even though like, it's about being black and growing up in Peckham and class and whatever, like, the first proper sport I played was like rugby, for example, um, as opposed to like football, and had a lot of opportunities to learn to play instruments like the saxophone, or whatever.

So there's a lot of support, whatever I did, and so that has really enabled me as I’ve grown up, as you can see like, even the career path I'm on, nothing was very like, conventional, you had to be a lawyer, doctor, or some accountant, you could just do whatever. So I feel like that part for me was very important. Outside of that, yeah, she was Nigerian, she was strict. She was, she - at the same time loving, and she worked multiple jobs, er, many cleaning jobs to very much look after us and give us the best possible life.

CRAIG

And you say that you were in this tough environment. What do you remember about that? What were the things that you saw that you worried about? That kind of thing.

KENNY

Well, to be honest, it's just, it's an area that is well known for a lot of crime and violence, and you see people get robbed. You, you see the fights, you see the attacks. You know people who have been stabbed or been shot, and people who have been robbed, so it’s, and it’s a scary environment to grow up in. This is not like, oh, this, this one thing that happened one time in the village. This is -

CRAIG

Is there a particular thing you remember that really stuck with you when you saw it?

KENNY

No, ‘cos I think what people forget, you become very desensitised and it becomes normal. So when people are talking about a specific moment, I have too many. So there's none that actually, you know, stand out and that's, like I said, that's not really the way that people should grow up and being exposed to all that type of trauma.

CRAIG

And reading about you, when you were 17, it sounds like you were very clear that you wanted to achieve things and that you were very sort of organised in trying to find people who could maybe help you, or mentor you, or get experience. Tell me about that.

KENNY

Yeah, so, so for me, it was just like, grabbing that environment. I've always, thankfully, because of my mum, always dreamed big and for her, education was a big thing and, yeah, like you said, I've been very proactive to look for opportunities. And when I was 16, that's when I applied for my first work experience at City Hall with Valerie Shawcross, and then I also did work experience at the House of Commons after, and Southwark council, so…

CRAIG

And a month before you were arrested, I think you'd, um, even had contact with Theresa May on community safety, that kind of thing.

KENNY

Yeah, so we did a presentation, myself and my mentor Jonathan Toy, at the Home Office to Theresa May when she was, yeah, so that - that was, er, yeah, in April in 20… if I remember correctly, 2011.

CRAIG

Sounds like you were laser focused on achieving in life, and making things happen, but while you're doing all this kind of thing, you got arrested. Tell us about that. What happened?

KENNY

Yeah, so in December 29th, there was a murder that took place in Peckham, and then two days after, two of my close friends were arrested for that murder, and then another friend arrested, January 2011. Then April 2011 - and then I turned 18 on May the 7th 2011, and then two days after, I was arrested and charged for a murder, two attempted murders, two grievously bodily harm offences, as well as possession of a firearm, and possession of a knife. So that - then I was sent to Feltham Prison on remand.

CRAIG

First of all, when you heard about the murders, and then that your close friends had been arrested, what was your reaction?

KENNY

Well, in terms of, it was shock and - but at the same time, like I said, even around that time, there's probably been around two or three recently, so this is, er, it’s the kind of environment I’m talking about. So it wasn't, it was a, it was a shock in a ways, in terms of them being arrested, as well as, um, the person who passed away as well. This was also someone who I knew, so that was a, er, you’re, you don’t, you don't really know what to think about it. It’s, it’s sad.

CRAIG

And so when they were arrested, it sounds like it was several months before you were arrested. Was there any sort of sense of the police coming to you, asking you why you were involved, if you were involved, or that sort of thing?

KENNY

No, not at all. It’s a Joint Enterprise case, so as those who are aware of Joint Enterprise, it's, er, so the courts ruled it some years ago in terms of it’s been, been used unjustly for the past three decades, at least.

CRAIG

So explain Joint Enterprise for some people who don't know what that is.

KENNY

It just basically means that you can also be found guilty of a crime, even if you didn't exactly do it, they will - they can argue that you gave someone the confidence to commit the crime.

CRAIG

So the suggestion was that you were part of a conspiracy to have this person killed, even though there was no evidence that you were actually there, or involved in the actual…

KENNY

No, there was no, there's no hard evidence at all, and so with Joint Enterprise, you could be at home and someone else does the crime elsewhere. And so just by the fact I was in communication with them, which is normal with your friends, they turned that into a story and that’s how I got tied up into it.

CRAIG

So this is really hard, and don't take this the wrong way, but I wanna talk about it because I think a lot of people have the kind of prejudice, like that there's no smoke without fire, or the police must have had some evidence, or something like that. Just explain to us how they came to the conclusion that A) we should arrest you, B) we should charge you, and then you should be in remand in p- on remand in prison?

KENNY

That is based on communication with my friends on the same day. It wasn't like CCTV, there wasn't it’s like blood evidence. Nobody was actually, no witnesses actually said I was there. Nothing, it was all based on cell site, um, communication. That was it. [They’re just looking at your phone and saying-] That’s it, it’s cir- yeah, circumstantial evidence, that’s what it was based on.

CRAIG

So they just look at your phone and say, ‘Look, there's been a phone call or more than one phone call, and therefore’…

KENNY

That was their case, yeah. [And then] [LAUGHTER] Also, they, they built a story around it, er, but that's essentially their case.

CRAIG

And that moment when you were arrested, what happened? Did it come out of the blue? Were you expecting it?

KENNY

Er, you can - no, it was actually early morning, actually, yeah. People just knocked on my door, and I was thinking, ‘Who the hell is at my door?’ And I didn’t expect any visitors, so I went to look, and it says police, show their badge, and that’s how I let them in. And it's very hard to articulate in that way, ‘cos at the end of the day, you're going through a whirlwind of emotions, and at the same time, you're just…yeah, really thinking there, what, what on earth is gonna happen now.

CRAIG

Must have been really frightening.

KENNY

And of course, you don't know what to expect at all, and if you do go to prison, and you are found guilty, you could be spending a long time, at least 30 years.

CRAIG

So when you were charged, you basically get put in prison until you're tried, or the police say, or it's decided by the Crown Prosecution Service that you - you're not gonna be tried. So how long were you in prison for?

KENNY

Yeah, so it doesn’t matter when I was charged, I was, er - had to - ‘cos I got charged in the afternoon, I went to court the next day and that's obviously when I got remanded for six months, and that's how long I spent in prison, six months exact.

CRAIG

Which prison was it?

KENNY

Feltham Prison.

CRAIG

Try and explain that to people listening to this, ‘cos they, they won't have had any - well, a lot of people won't have any experience of that. You're a very young person, you're going to a prison. Describe that moment of going into the jail, what they do and how you were feeling.

KENNY

Yeah, so in terms of going, going to jail, so I was, I was going to prison in this van. I’d been to Feltham Prison before to visit people, but I'd never actually seen what goes on behind the actual visiting doors and behind the big gate that you see vans and yeah, cars go through. And to unders- you go, you get - they process you through, in terms of taking a picture of you, taking your fingerprints, giving you a prison card. Then obviously you get strip searched as well. That was my first time ever being strip searched, but obviously they do that to make sure that I'm not actually bringing anything into the prison. And then yeah, you’re sent to a particular wing. Obviously, different jails will be different. Where you s- you spend the night, they give you a smokers pack or non-smokers pack, and…

CRAIG

Which were you?

KENNY

Er, no, I don't smoke, so I think there’s a non-smokers pack and hey, just wait until they can put you somewhere for you to continue the rest of your time there.

CRAIG

That moment where you're basically in the cell, and they shut the door for the first time, and the key gets turned. Can you describe that? Because I, I think that must be an extraordinary thing to experience, particularly if you're innocent.

KENNY

To be honest, it’s all surreal because you've never been, I've never been confined to a very tiny box of just a hard bed and a tiny square TV, and yeah, some windows that you can't even open up properly for air, so yes, it’s, it's a very tough and almost sleepless night, because end of the day for you, it's still not sunk in that you're actually here. And more times than not, you could easily spend 23 hours a day in your cell.

CRAIG

Is it really that long? You get an hour's exercise and that's it? Or is it, I mean, that's that only some of the time?

KENNY

Well, a lot of time, if you haven't got a job, or you haven't been put on a particular course, you’d be spending that much time.

CRAIG

And that must be, you know, drive you mad, really, [LAUGHS] but you just - if you've got 23 hours a day to fill in this room with not much.

KENNY

Yeah, exactly, and that's where, I mean, it’s definitely not great for your mental health in that way, ‘cos you don't actually do anything. And even that hour, that hour is for you to socialise, for you to shower. It’s just not really that much time, and also to make a phone call, but then there's also queues to make phone calls. There's a lot they’re expecting you to do within that hour.

CRAIG

You must have been constantly on your guard, and just, you know, almost in a kind of fight or flight sort of -

KENNY

Yeah, no, of course, yeah, because obviously you don't know who's gonna see you there, what's gonna happen. You just don’t know what to expect, so that, that in itself has you on the edge.

CRAIG

And you don't know at this stage, whether or not - ‘cos it, it sounds so incredibly unfair that you're there in the first place, but you don't know if the system’s actually gonna make it worse by finding you guilty. And then you're in there, as you say, for a life sentence. [Yeah] So you must have been frightened about that.

KENNY

Yeah, no, look, er, it's a real life or death experience living day in, day out, and you're in this place and you have to remind yourself that this is temporary, and, and you have to make the most and that's what I did there in terms of doing my A Levels there, getting stuck into doing other things, which for me, was very key.

CRAIG

And how's your mum doing during all of this?

KENNY

No, during it, she was extremely supportive. My mum, my stepdad, friends, family, they were, yeah, looking after me, in terms are sending me money. My mum and stepdad would come and visit me every week, which was, to be honest, I don’t know how they did it, but they found a way to come and see me every week, and to see how I was doing, which was a big deal for me.

CRAIG

And you say you were, you were studying for your A Levels even in prison. [Yeah] [LAUGHS] So th- what was that like? I mean, was that practical? Did they help you? Did they support you in that?

KENNY

Er, no real help, but at the same time, something which I fought to do, and there's a woman called Joanne Hodgson who was really supportive in terms of speaking to my college on the outside to facilitate me doing my A Levels in there, because they’d never had, ever had anybody that came in, that wants to do A Levels before. And so, just had to really fight the system in order to make it happen, and yeah, Joanne and others were helpful in terms of facilitating that, and that was really - I - she helped me get stuff to revise.

CRAIG

Presumably, you had a whole load of notes or something, [Yeah, so yes] were you allowed them?

KENNY

Yeah. So she literally met my parents outside of the prison to pick it up so I could actually use, so she just went over and beyond her job to make things happen for me.

CRAIG

And how did you do in your A Levels?

KENNY

That's the A Levels I did well, so I passed them all, which is great in terms of, so I did history, philosophy and politics.

CRAIG

So did you go to the prison library, or-?

KENNY

Oh, no, so j- you do it in yourself, just revising yourself, and you do your exam, like, I did all my exam, there’s that just someone, er, invigilator there, they're looking over you to make sure.

CRAIG

I imagine it must have been a sort of blessed relief to have something to focus on.

KENNY

Yeah, 100 percent, but at the same time tough because usually during that period that when I went to prison is when your tutors and the teachers basically kind of tell you what to revise, what to look at, give you way more guidance. You, you don't have any of that. You're just going off your notes and not exactly the most hopeful, but honestly, I'm, yeah, super grateful to be able to do it.

CRAIG

So you learned a lot academically in prison. [Yeah] What else did you learn [LAUGHS] beyond that? What were the lessons that you think it taught you, being in that quite extreme experience?

KENNY

I guess the one thing which prison did for me which is very hard to do outside of a prison context, is really have the time to think, ‘cos you have a lot of time to think, to be honest. It's not like these days, people go to like, a two hour session about something to do their life and life planning, and reviewing and then they go on a weekender. This - you have a good, at least few months to think hard about your life and -

CRAIG

But mental you talk - you mentioned mental health earlier. That could be a good thing that you're thinking about your life, but I also imagine it could be a sort of fairly torturous thing, you know, like thoughts going round and round your head, you know.

KENNY

No, I guess it could have been tortuous, but a big thing for me in prison was my own personal faith and conviction, and like getting to know God in a deeper way, and Jesus, and that gave me other things to focus on in terms of being more hopeful about my situation and -

CRAIG

Did that happen in prison, or was that something that was there beforehand?

KENNY

Yeah, so I've grown up knowing about God, and reading my Bible and - but this is just very much, you just grew up and you follow your mum to church, and then you go, and this is the kind of thing you do. Whereas in terms of an actual intimate relationship, I would definitely say in prison, that's where it started.

CRAIG

And did that help you being inside, having, you know, listened to those sermons, read the Bible, what were the things that helped you in this extreme circumstance?

KENNY

I think the most important thing is peace, ‘cos imagine you talked about like, torment and mental health. It’s the one big thing I had, I had that peace which surpasses normal human understanding in terms of knowing that actually, even during trial, people would see me and be like, ‘How come you’re still smiling and you’re still -?’ because in respect of everything, that's the one thing I felt that I had it inside me. And that wasn't based on my external circumstances, but within me, and then just trust in that. Yeah, that just, I just leave this to God, irrespective of the outcome.

CRAIG

We live in a world though, where people can be pretty cruel and look at people and say, ‘Look, there's no smoke without fire. The police must have been on to something, knowing something’. We talked a bit about that but let, let's just unpack that. What is it like, experiencing people looking at you and saying, ‘Well, there must be a reason for you being here. Come on’.

KENNY

No, no, so to be honest, in jail, no one really talks to you about that, so you don't actually hear any of that, because everyone has their own problems, as you can imagine. But even for people in general, it’s, er, I don't make no public declarations of growing up as being some saint or whatever, but at the same time, I know in terms of what I have done and what I haven't done, and I think it's very easy for people to have assumptions and always feel like, they're police, get it right, X, Y, Z, but we all know this is just public information that they don't. And end of the day, my chances of ending up in the system are way more higher than yours, Craig, and that’s just not because - irrespective of how I live my life, and actually, there's real stuff that we have to sort out in our country.

CRAIG

But let's, let's talk about that. So you know, I'm a white middle class guy that's, you know, experienced a lot of advantages in life. You're saying quite rightly, that your chances of being treated in the way that you were are much higher than mine, and it did actually happen. Tell us about that and the feelings around there, and what you felt about that, and what you've learned from that.

KENNY

To be honest, a lot of that which I've come to learn is very much like, after prison culture, even in our business, obviously we do a lot of research and one of the big topics that we have looked at is like, racism, for example, particularly towards the Black community, and actually, there's, there's so much research and evidence that's out that that literally shows in plain black and white the differences between outcomes.

Even government data, right, in terms of the, the race disparity audit showing in terms of the different outcomes, and a lot of this stuff is just based on ethnicity, and that's why I do a lot of work I do in terms of whether it’s advocacy and supporting where I can because I think I'm very blessed and fortunate to be out, and to live and to be able to even share the story.

And however, not everybody is, and there's enough men and obviously women who are in prison, and they shouldn't be either. And at the same time, we just have to be able to be brave and bold as a country in order to address these big issues that we're talking about, that it’s, it’s very unfair and it doesn't make sense in 2021, where I’m more likely to be stopped than you. I’m more likely to be charged for crime than you. I’m more likely to be sent to prison than you. And even when I'm sent to prison, I’m more likely to receive a longer sentence than you. Now, until anybody can explain to me why we still have that in 2021, then to be honest, I'm not really here to hear it.

CRAIG

A lot of people felt before, you know, the mor-murder of George Floyd, and even actually, England getting to the final of the European Championships, [LAUGHS] that we’d dealt with racism in this country, and those are two very different events, though, that made people sort of stop and go, ‘Ooh, hang on a minute’. That there's some dark issues that perhaps haven't been resolved. It's a positive sign, I guess, in a way, though, isn't it, that we are actually finally addressing some of this? Or do you feel that the progress just isn't fast enough?

KENNY

There has been progress and we shouldn't shy away from that, but for me in terms of people believing that this is some, I mean, glorious land where everything is more or less addressed and it’s just minor issues, that is not the case. Like I said, those, that whole journey that I just explained to you in terms of how you get in the criminal justice system, how my chances are higher than yours at every level, that has still not been addressed.

When we're looking at, for example, even when you saw, um, like George Floyd, one of the things it did, I believe, which made things different, was it raised the consciousness of people in terms of just how much people can also value the life of a-another black person?

CRAIG

So a judge eventually looked at the evidence against you, And basically said, ‘Look, this is bullshit’ [LAUGHS] and chucked it. Tell us about that moment. How did it happen, and more importantly, how did you feel?

KENNY

Yes, and how it happens on my legal team had to apply for a halftime case of misrule, ‘cos the prosecution had finished their case by then, so they applied in terms of, for the case to be dismissed and this is something that the judge reviewed, and so he came back and he gave his judgments on those who've applied for case dismissal.

And when it came to me, yeah, he dismissed my - or he instructed the jury to find me not guilty of all seven charges, and, and I remember coming back to see all these legal teams in front, they all have these books and all this stuff on their desk, but my legal teams was totally - there's nothing on the desk any more, and I just knew I was going home.

Like, the day before I was acquitted, I remember calling my mum and being like, ‘Yeah, just pray for me. Something tells me I'm going home tomorrow’. And I remember literally in terms -this is what I mean, about the whole faith - I literally packed all my stuff and left a note to give it out to people. Remember, there's no guarantee at all that you're going home at all, ‘cos such a big case, but I literally packed up all my stuff and, and I'm in believing that more than one guy saw me and was like, ‘Why are you packing all your stuff? Are you going home?’

I didn't really pay him any attention, but so when I got to court, I just remember praying before going in there and then by the time we got in there, that’s when the judge more or less shared that yeah, I’d be getting acquitted, and then he, then he instructed the jury, and you come out, and obviously it was a… I mean, the world just drops off your shoulders at that moment.

But like I said, also at the same time, the most bittersweet moment of my life because what is a life-changing moment for you, at the same time, having that freedom is also you know other people are still going through it.

CRAIG

And also that you've got this moment of elation that you're free, but also you have paid a very heavy price.

KENNY

Yeah, exactly, and yeah, that's just the, the reality and this, it’s not the same for a lot of people where they get their freedom. For me is extremely bittersweet. Very happy, but also very paranoid as well, am I gonna get called back into court? Just didn’t know what was gonna happen because the case is still ongoing, so.

CRAIG

So I've experienced, like, moments in my life where things feel like they've changed dramatically and, or, you know, something's happened and that's great. But there's a sense of those moments, nothing like what you've experienced, is that something that's enormous for you, but the world is still turning and people are still acting the way they are, and that there's something a bit - of a disconnect there that, you know, enormous things happen to you, and yet, you know, people are going about their business, is a kind of weird experience. Is that, is that right?

KENNY

Yeah, so no, like you said, er, the world is still going on, and I’m having to now adapt to this world, and you'd be surprised in six months how much society moves forward, even in terms of technology, even the things you forget, right, because you're so used to people having always done things for you when you need stuff. So I remember, like going into McDonald's and asking for a straw, whereas anyone who goes to McDonald's knows you get the straw yourself.

But ‘cos you're so used to asking all the time, you, you’ve also build those habits of going to people and being like, ‘Can I get this? Can I get that?’ And with even closing doors, ‘cos I haven't closed the door in like, six months. You close the door and you forget, have you even closed the door ‘cos you’ve always been behind a door that can only open one way.

CRAIG

That's so interesting, like the little things in life that obviously are very, are very profound, but did you feel changed?

KENNY

Well, changed in the sense of now you're out, you're free, but you, you now have all this baggage of what you've just been through, er, but you still have to move forward with your life.

CRAIG

And did you feel able to process that? Did you process that properly and get it out of your system?

KENNY

No, definitely not, because as soon since you're acquitted, you don't get anything, right? You don't get an apology; you don't get any support. No -

CRAIG

So nobody says sorry?

KENNY

No, you don't get anything at all. You’re just [You’re now free] no communication.

CRAIG

Mm-hm. So the police don't have to acknowledge the fact [LAUGHS] that they made a mistake?

KENNY

Nothing, that’s it. You just be grateful for your freedom, and life should move forward.

CRAIG

So, you, you're amazingly centred and balanced and just talking to you that, you know, you've got your faith and all that kind of stuff. I think that's amazing and interesting, but I think there must have been residual anger or pain, or suffering, or whatever that is ongoing and that you do have to face that and you do have to deal with it.

KENNY

A hundred percent, and for me, I would say that just took the time it took and - don’t say I didn't realise how angry I was until at one stage, sitting down with a mentor of mine at the time, who happens to also do psychotherapy and everything else, and really realising how angry I am and how much I fell out of love with the things I even loved to do, ‘cos you don't wanna do those things anymore. And at the same time, like you said, right, you're coming out and you don't wanna be known for this person who was charged for this, and is now cleared and - I would hate for that to be the biggest thing I'm known for.

CRAIG

So tell me about the journey back from that pain, and that difficulty and the suffering that was caused by all of that, because this is a podcast about wisdom and what people have learned, and that kind of thing. And overcoming those things, I think is where you gain real wisdom, isn't it? [Yeah] So tell us about that process, and what worked, and what you would be passing on to other people.

KENNY

So for me, I believe the, the first point of wisdom was making sure that I make myself vulnerable and invite the help that I needed, and I think a lot of times when you're going through things, the, the strongest thing you can do is actually ask for help, and as someone who has obviously been through that case, and then I wasn't begging anyone for help, I was very much just pushing through and I focused on my faith in the people who were supporting me.

But I made sure I got as much help as possible, in terms of - in order to build my life back up, and I'm very big on like, mentors who have been, whether it's father figures, mothers, aunties, uncles, people who have really invested their time and energy into me on my journey, and I would say that, for me, was transformational.

CRAIG

Was it hard at first to make yourself vulnerable?

KENNY

Yeah, of course, because like, growing up, that was the one thing you didn't do, ‘cos vulnerability was seen as a weakness, so I just -

CRAIG

Or people might take advantage of you.

KENNY

Of course, hundred percent. So, er, you grow up in Peckham, you can’t just, [LAUGHS] you know when you grow up, you just, you have to be tough. You have to be able to look after yourself, up, you can't show people any form of weakness, and also at the same time, you're just trying to achieve and get things done by all costs, so, and there's none of that.

CRAIG

A lot of people we talk to, talk about accepting what's happened, not in the sense that it's okay or that it should have happened or that it was right, but that actually acknowledging it's there, it's real, you can't change it, and then building and moving on from that. And they also talk about letting go a lot, so not clinging on to the old thing, not being defined by it. Are those two things you recognise?

KENNY

Yeah, very much so, ‘co- because once I came out, my big thing was all about rebuilding my life and also just been hopeful about, I did not want this story to be the story that I’m remembered for.

CRAIG

It's interesting, isn't it? Because we've spent the last half hour talking about it, and you're being very open and honest about it, so - but you're not being defined by it, but you - it - you obviously think it's important to talk about, but not be defined by it.

KENNY

And I think it's important, because end of the day, that has shaped me in more ways than I imagined, and even this week makes it 10 years since I've been acquitted, so when I look back at the 10 years, it has obviously shaped me, but at the same time, it's taught me brilliant life lessons in terms of - one, in terms of what I'm capable of, in terms of just the strength and resilience I was able to show at the time.

Um, secondly, also just the value of life, right? I live life totally different because I genuinely feel, unlike most people, I have a second chance at life, and I’ve felt that from 18 and now I’m 28, that I've actually got a second chance at life to get things right, and to create the legacy that I - that I want to have. And that’s - that's a very different way to live, and what people see as a loss, or tough, or a hard time, is for me, it's nothing compared to what I know life could be like.

CRAIG

And let's talk about what you've achieved since leaving, because it's, I mean, I think, you know, it's really impressive. Tell us about what you're doing and how that is related to what happened to you.

KENNY

Yeah, so a lot of work I'm doing now, so I run a research company called Clearview, and a lot of the work we do is very much about gathering insights on people from diverse backgrounds. So we work with like, NHS, Starbucks. We’ve worked for, I've worked on like campaigns for like, Uber, Tinder, Deliveroo and different companies like that, so -

CRAIG

Tinder?

KENNY

Yeah, so, a socially good campaign is all to do with how we can get more young people actually registering to vote.

CRAIG

Right.

KENNY

That's a very different - that’s not the - not what you usually expect.

CRAIG

And why do you - why is that so important? It’s interesting, like, actually getting them to vote, why is that particularly important to you and linked to…

KENNY

I'm very big on power and agency, and people understanding that actually we all have power to do something and we all have agency, even if we - even if choices are limited, we all have agency. And so for me, in terms of politics, it’s very important because it's the whole thing of like, if you don't do politics, politics will do you, and it's not - a lot of people who are most affected by it are least likely to engage, and it's really about how we can encourage them to engage, raise their awareness, but then also show them the power they have and also how they can exercise and use it. And so for me that's - I've been very passionate about doing m-much more of that.

CRAIG

A lot of young people don't vote. [Yeah] Um, do you find it a hard sell?

KENNY

I find it a hard sell in terms of at the same time, like I said, the choices aren’t necessarily great, um, to be honest. I think whether you're young or old, you might look at the, the current leaders and obviously people can make their own assessments, but I would say everyone has the power in terms of, even if they want to look at how they can make change locally, regionally, or nationally, or even just in terms of just looking at ways they can contribute to it, to be part of the solutions in society, everyone has the opportunity.

I said, for me it's really about politics, even with a small P, even outside of just voting, but also how you can be active in order to play your part, and being a solution, ‘cos you're either one of the two. You’re either part of the problem or part of the solution of society. There is no middle ground.

CRAIG

And when you go back to Peckham, and you meet some of the people and maybe see young people who are like you, [Yeah] you know, 10, 12 years ago, what are your observations? What do you think? Is it different? Is it the same? Is it…

KENNY

I’ll be honest, like, there's a lot of people who are still living with a real sense of hopelessness in relation to what they can do with their life, who they can become. And for me, I just really hope that my life can be a testament of what people can achieve, and in terms of just the fact that it's not really about where you start.

I mean, just ‘cos, at the same time, if you are proactive and you get the support you need, you know, God willing, you will be able to achieve what - even beyond your wildest dreams. Like, even if I look back at the 10 years, where I am today, I could have never pictured that vividly when I was in a cell.

However, I've just been able to take each day as it comes and also be hopeful. I think that's the one thing which I've held onto and which probably allows my life to be very distinct, compared to maybe others, is that I'm a big believer in hope and actually holding on to it, irrespective of what is happening, because my stepdad talks about once there's, once there's life, there's hope. As long as you're living, you should be hopeful.

CRAIG

It's interesting you say that, ‘cos sometimes hope obviously is a massive positive, but sometimes also people are living in hope, and it never gets manifested as well. It's like it's a sort of two edged co- s- [Yeah] or two sided coin, isn't it?

KENNY

Yeah, no, of course, but then at the same time is, even if it doesn't happen, so what? And the reason why I say that is because I’d rather live in hope than live in fear, and there's too much people that feel the fear, and live life according to it, and I’d rather live life in a hopeful way and be optimistic. And that’s the only way things are gonna change in your personal life, and also like around you as well. That's how you impact your environment.

CRAIG

We've talked to a lot of people in this podcast series, and like some have had a, you know, a disease that will kill them. Some have had very severe mental health problems, or issues like yours, where, you know, something really drastic, dramatic and terrible happens to them. And quite often, when you talk to people who've been in those circumstances, they kind of say, look, they'd never have wished that that had happened, but neither do they actually regret it. They actually think, ‘I learned so much, I got so much out of that, and it helped me live my life in a good way’. Is that something you feel?

KENNY

Hundred percent. It’s - I would never wish upon anybody, and I’d have never invited that upon myself. However, like I said, in terms of how it’s shaped me, and the person I’ve become as a result of my response to it, I mean, I can only be very grateful, ‘cos like I said, just the perspective I now have on life is very different because of what has happened.

And actually, that keeps me grounded, that keeps me super grateful, that also allows me to focus on the important things in life, ‘cos when you're in a situation and you have nothing, and you're at rock bottom, a lot of things that people care about, you understand it's just vanity. And it's not like a case of, I need to read a book about this or anything else. I know this in my soul. I don't need reminders, I'm reminded every day when I wake up and the fact that I know that I can wake up on a nice, comfortable bed and not a prison bed or hospital bed.

That for me is enough to keep going on with my day and, and as I mean, a lot of times people need, we all need inspiration and however that - once you've been through those type of experiences, yeah, you can never be the same person.

CRAIG

Another big thing that always comes through is perspective. So perspective in terms of like, what matters and doesn't matter, but also, I think perspective on life. So I spent a lot of my life like, working incredibly hard, driving, and felt I lived in a kind of very stressful, anxious world and I thought of life as a real grind, not a gift.

And through talking to people like you and others, I sort of have managed to shift my perspective to say, ‘Look, hey, you know, I get to be here, and I get to talk to really interesting people like you, and I'm looking through the glass and seeing some very nice people that I've met today and it's a great experience’. That idea of having the right perspective or the right lens on life, a lot of people don't, but you seem to me to have that.

KENNY

Yeah, no, it's true, and it's like, was in a prison other day myself and obviously, Lord Hastings I know you’re gonna be interviewing as well, and we obviously were going through The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, and this is with a group of men who have 20 to 30 years. A lot of them, they never know their release date, but we're focusing on habit number one in terms of the circle of influence, and one of the things I talk to people about, and we talked about control, choices and agencies, understanding that when we talk, about even people from my context and where we come from, is that you cannot keep going on with the same old narrative that these young men or women are products of their environment.

Because actually, the environment doesn't just produce one product. And we've got very lazy as a society to believe just because people have faced with particular challenges or have been in particular environments, mean they must end up being particular kinds of people. And that's not the truth, and there's a truth that yes, you can increase their likeliness, but it’s the sort of thing of learning for myself that we all have a choice, and it's really, er, the importance of people understanding that.

CRAIG

So the one thing that we've been asking people at the end of these interviews a lot is, if there was one piece of wisdom you could give to people, what would it be? What's yours?

KENNY

So for me, er, it's a Martin Luther King Junior quote, in terms of just understanding that everyone can be great, because everyone can serve, and I really feel like, in terms of just where I've got to today, and a lot of the value that I've got from life has been through my service to others.

And I think a lot of times, particularly when people feel like they've reached a level of success, or they’ve got a particular place, or they just really wanna strive, actually understanding that love of duty to serve others and that's where the greatness comes in. And greatness doesn't come with fame. So whether or not you get this opportunity to do a podcast like this or not, but actually comes in that, and these are a lot of people I - that I'm inspired by, and who I learned from are those leaders who actually don't focus on how much people are serving them, but how much people they are serving.

CRAIG

It's interesting, you've spoken a lot during the podcast about mentors and people who've donated a lot of time to you. And that is a kind of ethos of pay it forward, or use what's been given to you in spreading it around. It seems that that's what you're, you're saying should really happen.

KENNY

Yeah, big time, and I feel like I would have never got here today if I wasn't standing on the shoulders of giants and a lot of people who have invested in me, and I feel like actually, as a society, and anyone who's listening, I would deeply encourage them to mentor people actively as well. Not, not about being on a scheme, but you know, building a relationship with some where you can just pour into them and honestly, the exposure I've had, the opportunities, the experiences as a result, is why I've got to where I am today.

It's not because of some great brilliance, or that I'm better than anybody. It's just the fact that I've been able to have that support which I needed and still need ‘til today. And that's why I do my best, like you said, making sure I'm doing that for other people as well.

CRAIG

A huge thank you to Kenny. Please like and subscribe to Desperately Seeking Wisdom and tell your friends about it. You can also find transcripts and further reading on our website: desperatelyseekingwisdom.com. Our next guest is Lucy Kellaway. Six years ago, when she was 57, Lucy quit her full-time job as a journalist at the Financial Times to become a trainee teacher. Her charity, Now Teach, encourages older professionals to step into the classroom and change their lives in the same way hers was transformed.

LUCY

Life is really long. There isn't a hurry to do anything, so if you haven't been successful by this point, it doesn't matter.

CRAIG

I hope you can join me and Lucy for that discussion. I’m Craig Oliver and this is a Creators Inc Production.