Pieces of Wisdom

Craig Oliver
Hello and welcome to Desperately Seeking Wisdom with me Craig Oliver. A while back I found myself struggling and went looking for some answers on how to live a more fulfilled life, but I discovered there's as much snake oil out there as there is real insight. That's when I started this podcast. I wanted to talk to as many well known people and experts as I could about what life has taught them, especially during the tougher times, and find out where they'd look for wisdom where they've needed it most.
We're currently in the middle of season three, where we've had some brilliant guests, including Emily Maitlis, Rory Stewart, and Clive Myrie. And there's a lot more to come. But in this episode, I wanted to share some of the insights we've received from our guests in season one and two. In the last couple of years, I've had many inspiring conversations with Richard Curtis, the late George Alagiah, Amber Rudd, Sian Williams, David Baddiel, and many more.
You can listen to all of these episodes on our website, www. desperatelyseekingwisdom.com, or wherever you get podcasts. But to give you a taste of these conversations, we've compiled a collection of some of the most memorable insights from our guests. First up, wisdom. What rules do each of these guests live by?
What piece of wisdom would they like to pass on? Their answers are often practical, spiritual, funny, and profound. We begin with the comedian Matt Forde, who recently appeared on the podcast for a second time after he was diagnosed with cancer. The wisdom here comes from the first time we spoke to him. As you'll hear, he's a wonderfully funny guy, but also insightful on the challenges he's faced in life, and the valuable lessons he's learned from them.
Matt Forde
Do you know what? I thought long and hard about this, and I kept thinking of different things, but I think, and maybe this is a product of the industry I work in, but I think in life, firstly, I think just generally, throw yourself into it. into anything you're interested in, just don't be intimidated by it, get involved, and opportunities will happen, or you'll just really enjoy yourself.
I just think get stuck into stuff, never feel that things aren't for you, but mainly I think in, in life is to not get distracted or disheartened by what other people are doing, and, and not judge yourself against other people. And I think sometimes it's very easy to look at other people and think, Oh, they're doing better than me in this particular way, whatever, but you, you have.
One life, and it's yours, and you are doing it at your pace, and you are interacting with the world in a different way to everyone else. It's a totally unique experience, your life, and as long as you are doing the things, or trying to make the, trying to do the things in your life that you genuinely want to do, and follow whatever passions, whether it's in work, or or in your home life, I think don't, don't worry about what other people are doing.
Fill your life with the things that you enjoy doing. And I think sometimes, certainly one of the lessons from politics, I thought politics always seemed like this of inaccessible, impenetrable thing for elites. And you're like, well, actually it's for everyone. You can get involved. Just chuck yourself into it.
You know, and there's a million ways to get involved in politics. And I think that with anything, whether it's learning an instrument or literally anything. It's so interesting. Because what you do is, you, you are involved in politics, but your job is a comedian. And that's how you make money, and you've chucked yourself into that, and that was something that I think must require a lot of bravery.
Much more than just going out and putting some leaflets out in the, in, in some constituency. I mean, I think with anything, if you're not getting anywhere, then I think it's different. And if you feel like a lot of your effort, because people can delude themselves as well. So I think being honest with yourself.
About your own limitations and what you could viably and conceivably improve on I think is a really good life lesson And you know, sometimes you won't get breaks because of whatever and it's not always your fault But I think sometimes it is healthy to say or maybe that wasn't the greatest job interview Or maybe that person was a better candidate or I'm just not there yet or whatever it is And also, most of life does feel like failure a lot of [00:04:00] the time, and any success is usually quite incremental.
People always think, and particularly in my line of work, and I still think, now you're gonna get that one phone call where someone's gonna go, here's 10 million dollars, kid, you're a star. You know, that's just not how it happens, it's just, you pick up this gig here, there, and that leads to another thing, and it all happens quite slowly.
Craig Oliver
And I, I think that's so true, I look back on my early and middle career, I would often go for a big job. Not get it and the people would say But you did well, so we, here's this other thing that's half a step, and actually when you add all those half steps up, it's, it's, it's actually amazing how far you've come.
But the initial disappointment of not getting the thing that you take your heart on is, is not necessarily a problem long term, is it?
Matt Forde
What is the point of the whole thing, I think, is also the thing to bear in mind. So I've got friends, obviously in comedy, there are lots of ways to be successful, and there are lots of, you know, quite superficial measures of success.
So, have you been on Live at the Apollo? Have you been on Mock the Week? Things like that. I mean, I would talk to friends who'd say, all I want to do is Mock the Week, and then I'll be happy. I'd be like, but you wouldn't. You'd do it once, and then what? You'd stop doing comedy? Course not. You'd then want to do the next thing.
You'd want to get your own show. So, what is the end goal? And what do you do? I mean, comedy is a really good example, because online has transformed it. So, if you want to be, for instance, a comedian who is also an actor in sitcoms, then you need to show the world that you're an actor. You need to do things.
No one's just going to go to a comedy club in Wigan and go, oh, that guy in the middle, I think he should be in sitcoms. You know, you have to tell the world that that's part of who you are. No one's going to come and discover you. You have to put yourself out there. And I think that's another life lesson is.
In a way, be slightly shameless about promoting yourself, and not in a way that, uh, overly hurts your soul, but put sketches out online, you know, think of really funny people on social media like Josh Pugh and Alistair Green, really, really funny people, brilliant stand ups, but, but online is really where their strength as, like, sketch axes has allowed them to flourish.
Craig Oliver
You're reminding me of that John Lennon quote. In all of this, which is, you know, life is what happens to you while you make plans for other things. And actually, the point is to actually enjoy what's happening now and make sure you're doing something that you like now rather than constantly living in the future.
And I think that's something that I had a problem with. I was always looking. bored into the next thing rather than necessarily enjoying what was going on there.
Matt Forde
Yeah, I mean, and that's, that, you raise another thing there, which is life isn't just work. Now, I think sometimes if you work in the sorts of areas that, that you and I do, which is, they're, they're really great jobs to have, you feel a responsibility to yourself, obviously, to do them as best you can but they're consuming jobs. They're not jobs that you can just turn off. They're jobs that require a level of obsession and dedication to, to execute them to, you know, as good as they could be. So I think there are periods in your life where it's okay to work very hard and to be dedicated and to effectively try and secure your future in some way.
But equally life isn't just work and life is friends and time off and holidays, if you're lucky enough, and going to shows that you like, or listening to music that you like, or the odd pint here or there. You know, I was never comfortable, partly I think because of the background that I come from, was that I had friends who, you know, sometimes people say, oh, what do you do for a living?
And they just say, I just work at Tesco. And it was, it was embarrassing for them to be defined by their job, you know. That's not what they chose to do with their life. That was just the sort of opportunity that was in front of them, but they're interested in culture and art and football and sport. You talk to them about a million other things than what they do for a living.
So I think that's another lesson as well is to, to realize that work is great. And if you find something you're really passionate about and sustains you in a way, I think we're very lucky. I think we're probably in the minority, really. I think for a lot of people, work is just a thing to pay the bills.
And, uh, maybe those people have a better work life balance because then they have better weekends than we do.
Craig Oliver
One of the most powerful episodes we've recorded was the very first one, with the late, great George Alagiah, who sadly passed away in 2023. When we spoke, George had been battling cancer for many years, so when I asked him for his piece of wisdom, it felt particularly poignant.
The question I sort of want to ask everybody at the end is like, you know, if there was one piece of wisdom that you would give to people or say to people, what would it be?
George Alagiah
I think it would be something like this. I think it would be to constantly ask the question, what is it? We can do together because I think that's what I've learned over these last seven years You know, we've talked great, you know about vulnerability. We've we've we've talked about intimacy But all of those things that are to do with sharing thoughts ideas Asking for support asking for help. They're about togetherness And I think what is it we can, yeah, what is it we could do together would be, would be what I would pass on.
And because we don't do that enough. I mean, you know, take the world that you were in so recently, the political world, it's all about being adversarial. Um, we've talked about in my work, how so much of it is, is, is driven by competition and deadlines and so on. And, um, and. I think to, to actually try and get to a place where we're talking, asking each other, okay, we disagree about things, but what is, what are the things that you and I can do together?
And, and what worries me actually quite a lot is the way in which it's a very, if I may say so, kind of a very Western approach to life. And what I find really sad is the way that's now sort of bleeding into, into other cultures. You know, I mean, I spent a lot of my time, as you know, in Africa, and this is in South Africa, they have a word for this word Ubuntu, which is this thing idea that, you know, I'm only human if I recognize the humanity in you.
And actually you find that in lots of other African cultures, there's this, this collective notion of life, which I think we have lost.
Craig Oliver
The late, great George Alagiah, he'll be sadly missed. His insight about vulnerability is one that's been shared many times on this podcast. Please do go back and listen to the whole episode, it really is worth a listen.
Also in season one, I spoke to Isobel Hardman, an award winning journalist who's been very open about her battles with PTSD after suffering trauma.
Isobel Hardman
So because I'm so focused on outdoor exercise and outdoor activities, I think I've got two bits of advice. Actually, one is for people with a mental health problem.
One is for people trying to look after someone with a mental health problem. And for people with a mental health problem, find something that is outside that you enjoy. So a lot of our lives has grown ups taken up by doing things that we know we have to do, like our tax returns and stuff. And that is good for us because then we don't get the tax man after us.
But when you've got a mental illness, don't just do something because you know, people say it's good for you. Like if you hate running. Don't run, like, do something else, go for a walk, go swimming. Don't make yourself more miserable with an exercise that you hate.
Craig Oliver
But it should be a physical thing. I think, well, physical in different ways.
Isobel Hardman
It doesn't have to be the case that you're like, running marathons or whatever. I mean, I did take it to the extreme and do the marathon, but, um, Even if it's just a one mile run, or if it's just a walk, or if it's just sitting still outside, whatever it is that helps you be more aware of the present moment, I think.
Um, but particularly exercise does help because it releases certain chemicals, um, that help us lift our mood. And then the advice I'd give to people who are desperate to help a friend or family member with a mental illness is, Ask them what would help them, because what drove me mad was people going, Have you tried this?
Have you tried that? Firstly, if I had tried it and it hadn't worked, that would make me feel even worse, because I was like, I can't even do this properly. And secondly, if I hadn't tried it and I didn't want to do it, I'd feel guilty about that as well. Have you tried hot yoga? No. Have you tried saunas? No.
No. I hate both of them. Go away. Actually turn to that person and say, What do you think could help you? Because you'd be quite surprised by their answers. That's what my doctor said to me. She said, what do you think you enjoy? And I said, well it's running and riding. And she said, well good. Let's get a plan to do those.
Craig Oliver
Great advice there from Isabel. It's time to play a snippet from one of the most animated discussions I've had on this podcast, featuring politician Ruth Davidson. She's known for her candidness and it was fascinating to hear her take a reflective moment when we spoke for the first season of Desperately Seeking Wisdom.
Ruth Davidson
The most important person to kind of, not please, but be able to kind of honour is yourself. I mean, it's not about. Like I say, it's not about doing what the boss wants, or something else, like, the most important thing is to be able to look yourself in the eye.
Craig Oliver
And why do you think that is, just to unpack that a bit more?
Ruth Davidson
Well, I think it's a, I think it's about self respect, I think it's about how you're then able to teach things to people. to your children if you have them. I think it's about holding on to something, about having that moral compass, about having that set of values. For some people it's faith, for others it's something more elemental.
But I think there is a core to people's being. And I think that you lose something of yourself when you knowingly compromise it. And I think that that's important. They're the sort of things that you regret, and I think they're the sort of things that it's worth holding on to.
Craig Oliver
And did that become clearer and clearer, do you think, as you were experiencing all the things you did, or is it something that's always been with you?
Ruth Davidson
Uh, I think it's something that idealists in their teens and twenties believe unconditionally. I think that as you get older, uh, you see the world and see the compromises that are in it and see not everything is black and white and that there are competing pressures and there are competing values, uh, and that actually it's harder to navigate.
And, and sometimes you get things wrong, um, but I think it's something you should always aspire to hold on to.
Craig Oliver
For season two, I spoke to the Reverend Richard Coles and the fearless foreign correspondent John Simpson. Through their childhood stories and career experiences, both of them provided me with valuable insights into their lives.
Despite their differences, as you'll soon discover, their lessons and advice were surprisingly similar. They both spoke of being kind as the most important bit of wisdom they'd like to pass on.
Reverend Richard Coles
Life is so full of unpredictable. and unimaginable challenges and opportunities and surprises that if you can just get through your present moment, whether it is of delight or of despair, it will pass and something else will come along and provided you're spared the real horrors of life.
But if you can just keep going, see what awaits, see what's coming, I think.
Craig Oliver
And it's an interesting that that's really a Positive and open attitude. I was talking to Anthony Selden the other day, who's telling me about a book he was reading about. entering old age. And he said that basically there's a crossroads where you can choose to be open to life and keep going, or you can become closed and confined and bitter. And obviously it's better to choose the former rather than the latter.
Reverend Richard Coles
But it's hard. I live near Eastbourne. It's a town which is really a town for older people. And it's just very interesting seeing people in whom that's going well, and people in whom that's going not so well, and trying to think about, well, how I might live my own age as I get into it.
You know, I'm a lucky person. I grew up in a family that was loving, and supportive, and solvent, and I didn't really want for anything essential. One of the big educations of my life in ministry has been ministering To people who grow up in worlds where they do not wake up in the morning thinking, the rising arc of my life is going to take me somewhere good today.
They wake up in the morning thinking, will we eat, you know? And how different it is for people who don't have the advantages that I've had. all things being equal, to make choices. I love the call in Deuteronomy to choose life.
Craig Oliver
The one thing I always ask people at the end is, if there was one piece of wisdom that you pass on, what would it be?
John Simpson
Can you think what yours is? Well, yes, mine's not, I mean, it's not wisdom really, but it's a never, never leave a story. before it's dead. Never go off halfway through. I've, I've done that myself. Uh, and I've seen other people do it. Just stay there. Keep on reporting until finally it's, it is time to leave.
It's not a great book. piece of wisdom. It's not something people can take back and say, God, John Simpson says don't leave, you know, but it is, it is really important. There's a tendency always to sort of say, okay, that's it. I'm sick of this. Let's get out of here. I mean, not everybody is John Simpson. He was covering great international events.
Does that apply to people's lives anyway? Oh, I think it, I think it really does apply to, to everybody's life. Yes. I mean, just keep on, don't leave, don't give up, just kind of stick with it. And it, it is the [00:18:00] right thing to do. I think in, Almost every circumstance. Am I, am I reading too much into this video?
Craig Oliver
You sort of saying, don't give up on life, basically. Yeah, that's what you mean. Absolutely. I mean, on anything. You're sort of saying that we've been given this chance, on this amazing planet, and we can embrace it, and You know, go and see and find out and experience as much as we can, or we can just be very narrow.
John Simpson
That's absolutely precisely, uh, what I, what I do feel. I think you should always, always go and see for yourself. And that's why I, you know, fight like anything to sort of keep on going, because, uh, I, I want to still feel a kind of sense of relevance and interest, you know.
Craig Oliver
Richard Curtis is the creator of some of the most iconic sitcoms and rom coms of all time.
As well as being one of the driving forces behind Comic Relief, Richard was a great guest, bringing intelligence and humor to the discussion.
Richard Curtis
For me, understanding what the phrase all people are equal really means, you know, paying attention to that so that when you're making decisions, see whether or not your decisions are good for others as well as good for yourself.
I think that's perhaps, you know, I'm not sure about learning from experience because I love the passion of people who haven't learned from experience. So I'm going to say wisdom is understanding that you live in a world of people of equal value to you and bracing your actions on that.
Craig Oliver
And if there was one thing that you could say to people having experienced everything you have done in terms of the entertainment industry and philanthropy and that kind of thing is, is there one piece of wisdom that you would offer to people or to, to your children in general?
Richard Curtis
Well, I suppose number one would be don't work with Hugh Grant. That would probably be, that'd probably be the top one. And I think oddly enough, On the creative side, I would say be very careful about compromise because it may just render all your work useless. You know, an unfinished bit of work that's 5 percent off may not be any good.
So I think fight for your vision of things. even if it's in a cooperative context. I think that's important.
Craig Oliver
Have you experienced a moment where you have compromised and really regretted it?
Richard Curtis
I have.
Craig Oliver
Are you going to tell us what it is?
Richard Curtis
No, but you know, just some of the work just turned out to be ordinary.I would say on the sort of trying to change the world way. try to stop talking and start doing as soon as you can. So I think locking an actual deed is a helpful thing.
Craig Oliver
Much of the wisdom shared comes from the tougher moments. In season two, I spoke to Tanya and Nadeem Ednam Laperouse, a husband and wife who faced one of the most horrifying experiences anyone could suffer, being unable to save their daughter, Natasha, when she had a severe allergic reaction to a sandwich that wasn't properly labeled. Speaking to Tanya and Nadeem about this awful event was incredibly emotional, but also inspirational.
Nadeem
Very hard and tough things will happen. People will die around you, whether it's your parents or, you know, or some, another member of the family younger than you, etc. We're never equipped, really, to accept or to deal with the fact that our children might die.
Other things also will happen, and I think it's the way you deal with those things, uh, you know, or able to deal with those things that really matter. But I would say, simply, if you've got faith, uh, essentially, and by that I mean, uh, uh, faith, like, you know, I ask Christian faith, you are far, far more likely, not just to survive, but actually thrive post the terrible thing happen and the rest of your physical life here on this earth will not only be happier and better but you will be probably far more productive than you ever were before and have a much more powerful and positive effect helping other people and that surely is a good thing and and you find happiness through that.
Craig Oliver
I don't really feel particularly affiliated to one. Religion or not, but I do think the one thing I learned is that there is a spiritual dimension to things. And again, that's another loaded word and people start, Oh, you're gonna be a bit weird here and say something. But actually, there's something inside us that we can't quite explain or contact with the way the world is or nature or whatever. And when you plug into that, Things go easier, I think.
Tanya
Yes, I would agree. We all innately want good things in our lives. And many of us are broken because of things that have happened to us either in our childhood or in our adult lives. And that can actually overflow and it can continue to break things in that happen to us.
And, and we've heard the saying that broken people break others. And that could easily have happened, happened to us. To us, I think we were both broken and we could have just hurt each other so much.
Nadeem
If you look at our situation against the odds, you know, even to the skeptic on the outside to make gosh sake, look what happened to them.
Well, we as a husband and wife, we're stronger together and more in love and understanding of each other than ever before.
Craig Oliver
During season one, I spoke to Dr. Sian Williams, a BBC reporter who retrained as a psychologist. And Kenny Imafidon, a campaigner who spent time in prison for a murder he didn't commit.
If there was one piece of wisdom that you could hand on to people, what would it be?
Dr. Sian Williams
Be mindful, be grateful, be kind. That's it, I think.
Craig Oliver
And each one of those words is sort of like the pinnacle of a very big pyramid, aren't they? So, you know, be kind, be grateful, be mindful. They're all, they are the tip of quite a broad way of thinking.
Dr. Sian Williams
They are, but you can do it. in little ways. You can start small. And I think, you know, when we're talking about, I don't know, moving from this sort of fast driven path onto a different path, it sounds like a huge corner turn, doesn't it? And, and it, and that's why it feels quite threatening because it feels so unlike perhaps you have been for such a long time.
So I think it's about doing those things, being mindful. Just for a few moments a day, just being present, just taking a breath. Sometimes our breathing is so high and shallow we forget to take a deep breath during the day. Being mindful, being grateful, that point that you were making, Craig, about just, I mean, it's remarkable we're here in the first place, so let's see life as a gift, not as a grind.
And being kind, so being able to show kindness, yes. We're kind of alright at doing that, I think, in the main. We're less good at accepting kindness from others and showing it to ourselves.
Kenny Imafidon
So for me, it's a Martin Luther King Jr. quote in terms of just understanding that everyone can be great because everyone can serve.
And I really feel like in terms of just where I've got to today and a lot of the value that I've got from life has been through my service to others. And I think a lot of times, particularly When people feel like they've reached a level of success or they've got to a particular place or they just really want to strive, actually understanding that.
We have a duty to serve others, and that's where the greatness comes in. And greatness doesn't come in fame, so whether or not you get this opportunity to do a podcast like this or not, but it actually comes in that. And these are a lot of people I, that I'm inspired by, and who I learn from are those leaders who actually don't focus on how much people are serving them, but how much people they are serving.
Craig Oliver
It's interesting, you've spoken a lot during the podcast about mentors and people who've donated a lot of time. to you. And that is a kind of ethos of pay it forward or use what's been given to you and spreading it around. It seems that that's what you're, you're saying should really happen.
Kenny Imafidon
Yeah, big time. And I feel like I'd have never got here today if I wasn't standing on the shoulders of giants and a lot of people who have invested in me and I feel like actually, as a society and anyone who's listening, I would deeply encourage them to mentor people actively as well. Not about being on a scheme, but building a relationship with someone where you can just pour into them.
And honestly, the exposure I've had, the opportunities, the experiences as a result. is where I have got to where I am today. It's not because [00:27:00] of some great brilliance or that I'm better than anybody. It's just the fact that I've been able to have that support which I needed and still need to today. And that's why I do my best, like you said, making sure I'm doing that for other people as well.
Craig Oliver
And finally, we're going to end on a lighter note. Going back to where we started with Matt Forde, who gives us some wisdom from some other people you might recognize.
Matt Forde
Well, firstly, I want to pay tribute to Craig Oliver and all the people, the great team that make this fantastic podcast. And my, my one piece of wisdom would be, uh, don't get caught.
Craig Oliver
And Donald Trump?
Matt Forde
My, my advice to you, by the way, I want to say, Craig, you're part of the fake news media, you people are bad people, you're a total loser. My advice would be. Do what the hell you like because you'll probably get away with it and you'll have great fun. And I got to tell you, Craig, the sort of advice I want to give you, I cannot put on the airwaves on your podcast, but I think just do what the hell you like, make it up because one day you could even become president.
And it's a beautiful thing and many people say that.
Craig Oliver
And the guy that's actually currently your political favorite, you do an amazing impression of Keir Starber. What's his piece of wisdom, do you think?
Matt Forde
My advice, Craig, would be to make every day as positive as possible, but to treat every day as an opportunity to make the country a better place for everyone in our society.
Not just those at the top, not just the 1%, but for everyone in our country.
Craig Oliver
I'm quite disappointed there. You didn't use the word metropolitan because I think you, you absolutely nailed the way you said it's metropolitan.
Matt Forde
Oh, that's right. Yeah. Of course. My second bit of advice is it, if you are in trouble, you have to phone the Metropolitan police. It's the, it's the way that he, it's the staccato teas and peas with the block nose vows. If you wanna work on a kids under impression, that's the. The Metropolitan Police.
Craig Oliver
Do you get depressed when you see people like, um, Boris fading? Or do you think there's just more opportunity with others coming along?
Matt Forde
I think it's nice to have to refresh it. I think with, certainly with characters like him, you get overload. And, and then everyone's doing them and you think, you know, I'd back, you know, I think I do a good Boris Johnson impression and I, you know, write good material for a bit.
Craig Oliver
Can you do Rishi?
Matt Forde
I think I'm the only person doing Rishi Sunak. Well, he's got that, Um, kind of, um, management speak that kind of and that slightly nasally, you know, it's great Craig to be on your podcast and You know, if I was to have six pledges, it would be half inflation, get the economy growing, stop the boats, cut the waiting list, and download this podcast. Because, you know, people say to me, hey Rishi, do you listen to a podcast?
And I say, yeah. You know what? I listened to Craig Oliver's.
Craig OliverSo that brings us to the end of our compilation episode. We've got more new interviews in season three coming up, including with Sir Trevor McDonald. In the meantime, you can find all our previous episodes on our website and our feeds. We hope you enjoy them. Until next time, goodbye.