Robi Damelin

Craig Oliver: You grew up in apartheid South Africa to a white progressive liberal family. Tell us what you remember about that ad.
Robi Damelin: Well, South Africa seems so far away, I mean, I remember my childhood. my first act of social justice. Was to steal a horse that was being beaten and to bring it home and stick it in our tennis court. And my father came home and I was five and found a horse and I was then sent to a very British colonial boarding school.
Craig Oliver: I mean, five is very young and a long time ago to remember, but what you, you felt very strongly that there was an injustice hearing that you had to write it. How did you actually steal it?
Robi Damelin: Well, the man who used to deliver the milk in the morning came with a horse and a cart and he had this huge cart horse. I remember standing at the window and seeing him beat the horse. And I'm a crazy animal lover, so I couldn't bear that. And I enlisted a friend and the two of us went off with carrots and tried to get the horse.
And I don't know how I agreed to even come with us up the hill to my house, but I think that was an act of social justice. And I knew there was something wrong with South Africa from a very early age.
Craig Oliver: And that sense that there was something wrong there that was obviously very strong in you, very young. Where do you think that came from?
Robi Damelin: I have no idea. I think that my family were kind of armchair liberals in many ways, and my uncle defended Mandela in the first prison crowd. And then I had this distant cousin. Who was a bit crazy who walked with, um, Gandhi from Peter Merrits work to Johannesburg. So perhaps it was in the Genes. I dunno where it came from.
Craig Oliver: And that's fascinating that somebody so close to you, your uncle was defending Nelson Mandela in 1956. I mean, do you have memories of that?
Robi Damelin: No. I remember much later I learned about Mandela and much later I thought, what an extraordinary man he was, because he was pragmatic. You know, everybody sees this glorious hero, but he was such a fascinating politician and understood so well, you know, how to capture the hearts of the white South Africans. I wish we had a Mandela.
Craig Oliver: But it was, it became obviously mainstream eventually after a long, long struggle, um, to recognize the greatness of Mandela. But in 1956, he was pretty much seen as a treasonous terrorist, wasn't he? By the community.
Robi Damelin: He was sat in jail for 27 years, you know, not for knitting sweaters, but that's the most remarkable thing. I remember going to Robben Island and seeing the cell that he lived in. It was so extraordinary to think that this man could come out of, out of 27 years in this jail and lead a country into not, into not having a blood bath.
And it's, I think that story that people can change was very influential in my own life.
Craig Oliver: I'm interested in that trajectory because, at first Mandela was obviously fighting against almost a complete wall. There were honorable, exceptions in the white community who stood up and believed that things should change. But very, very few of them. And then there was something in him that said, I need to be able to forgive.
I need to be able to work with people. But he also. Needed other people to work with. And that's sort of interesting, isn't it, that on the other side there needed to be other people that he could get traction from and engage with. And I think that that's what a lot of people feel very, very difficult about what's currently going on in the Middle East, is that there's very, very few people who are willing to engage and do the kind of thing that you do and see a humanity or, give the other side some credit.
Robi Damelin: Well, that's a very big question because it's in a very dark space now. And, if you think about it, everybody's looking for a solution to happen overnight. Now, it won't because there's so much anger and so much fear. And I think that on the Israeli, particularly male Israelis, there's a sense of humiliation because the Hamas, you know, came and beat, the Israeli army. You have to admit that, and that's a first. And so I, I think that a lot of the retribution also comes out of humiliation.

Craig Oliver: Let's go back to your story. In 1967, there was the Six Day War in Israel, you decided to leave South Africa and go and live in Israel. Just tell us a bit about your thinking then. How old were you?
Robi Damelin: I don't know. Now I just turned 80. I can't actually believe that it's hideous, but, I must have been then about, I don't know, 21, 22.
But I remember my parents were in, in London. I called when I saw the headlines in the newspaper that there was gonna be Six Day Way. And I said, I'm going to Israel. And my parents nearly had a heart attack. I had no intention of staying in Israel. I wanted to leave South Africa or South Africa wanted me to leave more, I think. I'm not sure which was more pressing, but my parents were terrified.
Craig Oliver: You were going to a country that had just fought a terrible war. It'd seen off the Arab invasion, but definitely a sense that, you know, not a stable place to go to and that it was surrounded by countries that wanted to see its destruction. You can see what your parents were worried.
Robi Damelin: Well, yes, it was kind of also jumping from the frying pan into the fire. But I came as a volunteer and to save Israel, and I landed up working in a chicken house in, in the kibbutz.
Craig Oliver: So you are in a country and you're suddenly working with chickens, but there's this great desire in you to save the country. Did, did that feel like it fit that you were doing that?
Robi Damelin: I remember coming to the kibbutz and saying, wow, this is amazing. You should give back everything that's been occupied and we could have peace. But on my part that was such a cheek, what did I know? I didn't come here, you know, before the six day war when they were digging trenches for bodies, you know, and, and people were living with a threat of death.
So it was very sort of cheeky of me in many ways to come and tell people that, I mean, I think I was right, because that's when the drama really started. But the experience on the kibbutz was quite extraordinary. We were, I think, 30 South African volunteers, none of whom had ever done a scrap of housework or ironing or anything like that. And here we were, but it was a different Israel then.
Craig Oliver: How did you feel doing that? You, you, you hadn't been in this environment, you were doing, you know, some hard manual labor. Was that, was that strange or did you feel like that this was the, this was easy
Robi Damelin: Shall I tell the truth here? I don't know.
Craig Oliver: Always tell truth.
Robi Damelin: Not always…but they made me in charge of all the volunteers. And so there were these very glamorous South African princesses in shorts and makeup at five o'clock in the morning, and I was not exactly. In that field. And so I gave them all the horrible jobs to do.
Craig Oliver: And our view of the kibbutz is that this almost sort of socialist community where everybody's equal is, is that a caricature or is that right?
Robi Damelin: It depends, I think kibbutzim have changed dramatically since it was not, uh, viable to continue like that. But if you look at the kibbutzim in the south that were destroyed now in the 7th of October, they had this sense of dedication I think of, of being founders in a country of guarding. And they also thought they were invincible, even though they were rockets before. If you look at the young people who lived there, they thought they had a very idyllic life in many ways. And I heard three, , youngsters who went back to their kibbutz where many of the houses were burned, and it was just a horrible scene to see what they saw. But they all said they would stay and rebuild. So I don't know, this whole war has made such a difference
Craig Oliver: It sounds like a people you know, committed to something that they feel is bigger and greater than them.
Robi Damelin: In many ways, but I've also been thinking about why, I keep thinking, why, how could young men in Gaza get to the point of this madness of the 7th of October? And I kept thinking, well, if I grew up there and I was like 14 years old, and every two years there's a war, and every two years there are bonds and I don't have a shelter and I don't have freedom of movement and I can't leave and I'm stuck here and I've got no hope.
So what kind of adult grows up out of that environment? And then on the kibbutzim, they also experience rockets. So there is fear, but in towns which are the border of Gaza, imagine what it must be like for them. I remember hearing this woman on the, on the radio saying, I have 15 seconds to get to the shelter, and I've got three children and one is in a wheelchair and I don't know who to take first. You know? It's all so, , mixed up in your feelings and, and, and testing your belief system.
Craig Oliver: We've already talked a lot in this conversation and we haven't, we've barely started, but we've talked a lot about facing the realities of a world that is full of horrors and you decided to have children when you were, you know, you were younger when the country was under threat and that kind of thing. I just wondered, did you think hard about having children in that kind of environment?
Robi Damelin: Um, not really because when I had kids it was in the seventies and I remember, um. Coming to Israel president, sad and standing at the entrance of the plane and sitting with my two little boys needs for me and the tears were pouring down my face because I thought they wouldn't have to go to the army.
Craig Oliver: Yeah, I can tell you're incredibly moved by that, that you've had and understandably, that, that you had two sons and that they then had to go and fight. Um, do you wanna take a moment?
Robi Damelin: No, no, I'm fine.
Craig Oliver: You're okay to keep going?
Robi Damelin: I dunno. Sometimes words just bring up a certain…
Craig Oliver: And I mean, look, look, and I totally understand. mean, look. You are, you're sharing something that's very, very painful to you. So look, why, why, why don't we try and talk a bit about that. So you had two sons, David and Aaron, and obviously they grew up together and as you say, they then had to go in the Army. And then the worst thing happened to you in 2002. Do you, do you think you can try and explain that to us?
Robi Damelin: Well, I mean, I remember when they first had to go to the Army when Eran, who was the oldest, I remember standing at the bus stop with David, and I couldn't believe that a child of mine would be going to hold a gun. That's how stupid I was. Okay. I mean, it was so painful to think that this would be a result of everything that I believed in. And then, there was a year and a month difference between them. And David had to go to the Army as well. So the two of them were in the army together and they never really told me what was happening. They used to tell me all kinds of bullshit, you know, about what they were doing.
Craig Oliver: Don’t worry, mum, sort of thing…
Robi Damelin: And then both of them finished the army. One went to South America and one went to India. And this is very common with kids who finished the army here because they wanna get away from what they did or from, from the whole army experience.
Then they came back and both started to study and David went to Tel Aviv University and he was studying for his Master's in the philosophy of education. And he was part of the peace movement and he was the leader of the uprising of the students. One of the leaders can't imagine where he got that from.
And he got called up to go to reserves and it was to go to the occupied territories and he didn't want to. He had signed a letter as an officer with many other officers that they wouldn't serve in occupied territories. And here comes this huge dilemma, you know, and he came to see me and he said, what happens if I don't go? So what do you say to somebody like that? This is a person who grows up in Israel with all the pressures of protecting your country, yet being liberally minded
Craig Oliver: What did you say to him? Did you say, you have my blessing and I understand…
Robi Damelin: I, of course tried to persuade him not to go because it was such a dangerous time and he didn't really want to go.
Craig Oliver: Did you have a sense of foreboding about it all?
Robi Damelin: Um, the night before I spoke to him and he told me where they were and that they were like sitting ducks in this ridiculous, checkpoint,
Craig Oliver: Was he frightened?
Robi Damelin: I don't know how I, I don't know. He would never have told me that, but he had tried to change that whole, uh, checkpoint because it was absurd. And he actually, um, when, a sniper stood on the hill and shot 10 people because they couldn't find where the gun was coming from because of the, and David ran out in his underpants and was killed immediately.
Craig Oliver: I think there's probably nothing worse than hearing that. A child has died that, you know, even though they're, they've grown up and they're adults and as you say, have the ability to make decisions, but that must have taken the most extraordinary toll on you at that moment.
Robi Damelin: You know, I remember waking up on the Sunday morning and I went to my office like at about seven o'clock in the morning, I must have been trying to escape something. Something was not right. And then round about 11 o'clock, the soldiers, there was a knock on the door of my office and there were three soldiers.
That only means one thing. And apparently one of the first things that I said, and I didn't know that I said this, is that you can't kill anybody in the name of my child. So there must have been something there. That was going to show what I was going to do for the rest of my life, I guess.
Craig Oliver: I'd like to spend a moment on that reaction because I think. A lot of people would feel at that moment that they perhaps wanted revenge or that they wanted to know, certainly that you know, that justice and possibly even quite extreme justice was gonna be visited on the people that are responsible. But your instantaneous reaction was that you didn't want violence to the perpetrators. I'm just interested in where that came from was it a sort of philosophy that you'd felt in the past
Robi Damelin: I can't answer that because it was such, I didn't even know that I said it. I was only told this days after. And it, but it was very clear right from the beginning that I wanted to do something that would prevent other mothers from experiencing this pain because this is something that it's like never goes away.
You learn to live with the pain next to you and you decide what you want to do with it. You know, it's like somebody comes and slashes a piece out of your heart. And David and I were really, really good friends and we did so many things together. We both loved classical music. We cooked together, we drank a lot of whiskey together and we listened to a lot of classical music together.
And, um, it's like I wake up so many mornings and think that it's impossible. What would he be doing now? He was this brilliant kid who played the French horn, who was naughty. And it's like suddenly they're gone. You know?
Craig Oliver: Do you think that your reaction would've also been his reaction? That if you'd been able to contact him, that that's what he would've wanted,
Robi Damelin: I can't speak for him, but it's like, people ask me about forgiving. I can't forgive for David. You know, I have no right to do that.
Craig Oliver: Can you forgive for yourself?
Robi Damelin: I don't know what forgiving is. Really. You know, I, this is another experience that happened in South Africa. I met a woman…her daughter was killed by the military wing and she said to the people who killed her daughter, I forgive you. And I wanted to know what did she mean when she said she forgave? So I went to meet her and I asked her, what's her definition of forgiving? And by the way, I asked everybody, if I have a small talk and there are not too many people in the room, I will ask, what do you mean when you say you forgive?
And I asked her and she said, for me, forgiving is giving up your just right to revenge. And then I met, uh, the man who'd actually sent the people who killed her daughter. And I thought he was gonna be some kind of monster. And he turns out to be this extraordinary man who says, by her forgiving me, she released me from the prison of my inhumanity. I mean, what more do you need than that? That's the most extraordinary statement.
Craig Oliver: We've discussed forgiveness on this podcast a few times before, and one of the definitions that people give, when they try and explain it a bit, they actually say that part of the forgiveness is you letting go for yourself so that as you say, you've [00:19:00] given a gift to the other person, but actually in reality, you are kind of giving a gift to yourself, which is letting something go and putting some of the burden to one side.
Is that something you recognize?
Robi Damelin: You know, I'm very involved with restorative justice circles and just as an example, I was in San Sebastian, and there were people there from the bus country and they were Irish and Italians and some Israelis and Palestinians. It was quite a loaded room, and some of the victims of the Basque man who had been in jail for 20 years.
He was responsible for the deaths of some of their families. And then there was an Italian man there with a woman. He'd blown up a train in the Red Brigade times in the eighties. And this woman was the daughter of a man that was killed and the busk man said, I ask people to forgive me.
And the Italian got furious and said, how dare you do that. You know, it's a gift, and if they want to give it to you, they'll give it to you. And what are you doing by asking you put another burden on their shoulders is so complicated. I don't, you know, I don't, I think that I'm so much at peace now that I don't really think about forgiving, not forgiving.
You know, I once, once they caught the man who killed David, that's when it really became difficult because before that there wasn't a face.
Craig Oliver: Tell us about seeing that face and you know, that being clear definition and detail and a real human being being there. Tell us about your experience of coming to terms with that.
Robi Damelin: Well, the thing is, at first of course, I didn't know who killed David, so I could go around the world talking about peace and reconciliation and I thought I was really tremendously important. And then, one night I was sitting at my computer and there was a knock at my door. I opened the door and there were three soldiers standing there. When they're three soldiers, you know what that means? So I slammed the door in their face and they kept knocking and knocking and knocking. And I eventually opened the door and they said, we came to tell you that we caught the man who killed David.
And that's when it became difficult because that's when it, the whole test came. Do, I mean, what I say? What am I going to do with this now? Here’s a face. Here's a man. Do I walk the talk? Uh, is it in integrity to walk around the world and talk about reconciliation and, and non-violence? Do I mean it, it's very difficult.
And it took me something like three months of really not sleeping. I mean, not sleeping, walking around and thinking I can't be with the parents circle anymore because I'm not willing to do anything. And then one morning I just woke up and I wrote a letter to the family of the man. And I told them who David was and I told them about the Parents Circle 700 families, who've all lost an immediate family member to the conflict. And then I said, I think we should meet. We owe it to our children and grandchildren. And two Palestinians from our group delivered the letter.
Of course, I'm not a very patient character, so I immediately think I will get some reaction from the sniper. And it took three years and he wrote me a letter, over a Palestinian website in which he said I'm crazy and that I should stay away from his family and that he killed 10 people to free Palestine. But the truth is, from his family we heard, that when he was a little boy, he saw his uncle violently killed by the Israeli army, and then he lost two further uncles in the second uprising.
Craig Oliver: There's so much in there. Let's try and and go through that. First of all, deal with. The reaction of the guy who'd, who'd killed your, your son. Basically saying, I think your response of saying, I want there to be understanding.
I don't want there to be bloodshed. I, that kind of thing. His reaction was, I'm not interested. There's a bigger cause and that's why your son was killed. I mean, when you are basically foregoing vengeance when you are trying to be the bigger person and struggling with it, that must have been an incredible blow
Robi Damelin: Well, you know what? It really wasn't because what it was is I was no longer contingent on what this man would do. I now knew and I felt free. I know this sounds crazy. It's almost like giving up being a victim.
Craig Oliver: A lot of psychology and learning about living in this world is all about don't expect anything from anybody else. Only you can change yourself. You can't change other people. You can't have expectations of other people, and when you do, they will disappoint you. You can only change yourself, have expectations of yourself and try yourself. It feels like this is a very, very real raw example of that.
Robi Damelin: In a way, but I do think people can change. I. I really do because I've watched it within our own group.
Craig Oliver: I think that they can change, but I think what a lot of people say is don't necessarily expect them to, and it's when they are ready to change and they are making their own decisions, not because you try to exert pressure on them.
Robi Damelin: It's not even pressure, I can tell you a quick story to illustrate that if we've got time. I like to tell stories.
Craig Oliver: I like hearing them.
Robi Damelin: So, one day I decided - within the framework of the Parent Circle, we have a very, active women's group - so I went to a place which is in the West Bank. Not really supposed to go there, but I really don't care. And there were a whole lot of women from the Parents Circle, but also a woman walked in and she had a necklace around her neck with a picture of us, of a boy. So I knew that she was a bereaved mother. I was the only Israeli there. And she saw me and she wanted to leave. And I called her at the door and I said, please, come and tell me what happened to your son.
So she came and she sat down and she had her back to me, and I kept asking her more and more questions and she started to tell me about er son and how old he was and what school he went to and, and what he liked to study and how he died. He was also killed by sniper by the way.
And she said, and if I meet this man after a hundred years, I will kill him. The man killed her son. And then I said to her, because I saw she had this picture around her neck, I said, would you like to see a picture of David? So very reluctantly, she said, okay. So she turned towards me for the first time and I showed her the picture, which I had in my hands, and she looked down and she said, Haram, which means water pity.
And that was like a turning point in this woman's life. I know that sounds extraordinary, but today she's one of the most active women in the parents circle. One of the most important women. She traveled with me all over the world with this message. She suddenly, you know, she had other children who she ignored because she was so deep in the mourning and anger and she brought all the family to the parents circle.
Now that's extraordinary. So I think people can change and a lot of change comes from telling your story. Because that's a lot of the stuff that we do in the Parents Circle. And when the Palestinian women first come, they tell you about deaths, but they tell you all the graphic details, how far the bullet was, how much blood there was, where it was exactly all that, because they've never had that opportunity.
And then suddenly the more they tell their story, at some point they start to talk about the person that died. And that's the next step in healing.
Craig Oliver: It's very interesting, just listening to everything you're saying, the phrase that just keeps ringing around my head throughout this conversation is, you know, Gandhi saying ‘An eye for an eye, making the whole world blind.’ And it seems to me that that feels like a neat sort of description of, of what you are saying, which is yes, we could have vengeance. Yes, we could have what is seen as old school justice, but all that does is perpetuate things. But it seems to me it requires an extraordinary strength, particularly from somebody who's at their weakest moment where they've lost a child through a violent act to, to actually embrace that and say that this is what I want.
Robi Damelin: It wasn't conscious. It just happened, you know, it, it, yes. I, what happened was, my way with dealing with grief in many ways was immediately to want to change the world, um, which was already in me. But this came out and I didn't, I immediately started to act, you know, I, it was my way in a way of dealing with grief, which wasn't such a great idea. I needed time. You need time to absorb all of this and to, and to experience pain.
Craig Oliver: You mean you jump to a position very quickly?
Robi Damelin: Yes. I it was three months that I joined the parents circle. They found me because I spoke at a huge demonstration.
Craig Oliver: I understand what you're saying. That it is exactly that, that when you've been hit so hard. The natural reaction is internally to think like, what will make me feel better? What is the right thing to do? And I totally get your point that you actually need to allow things to settle and take their time and move on. But it does seem to me that when things had settled and moved on and that you'd reached a place where you were ready to make proper decisions, it does seem that your initial reaction you believe was really the right one. And that's why you've been such a big part of Parents Circle, and that's why you, you speak so passionately for it.
Robi Damelin: Yes, uh, yes. I dunno what to say. I, you know, I don't sit too much. I'm so busy. this took over my life because it's so extraordinary how you can be a catalyst. For that, I'm very grateful.
Craig Oliver: So let's talk about October 7th because we are recording this, months after, and it is fair to say that. There are very, very entrenched views on both sides, feeling that there needs to be more and that, actually the only solution to this is violence. And I'm deliberately playing devil's advocate, what would you say to people who said that actually you just need to come down on them like a ton of bricks, destroy it, root them out, get rid of them, and actually what you are doing is perhaps making the situation
Robi Damelin: Well, firstly, I don't think you can kill an idea. The only thing I think we can change anything about what's happening in Gaza it is by changing the life of people there so that they have some hope, so that they have a feeling of freedom somewhere along the line so that they won't grow up being able to commit these terrible crimes that they did.
Craig Oliver: I think that there's also something that you said earlier, which is very resonant, is that the man that killed your son, had witnessed an act of violence against him when he was younger. And I think that that's the sense, isn't it, that the more violence there is, it doesn't end things often. It just actually magnifies and amplifies things and makes them worse. But it does require people on both sides to stand up and say, we shouldn't do this, we're not doing this. And I suppose the argument that will always be used against you is there just aren't enough people on the other side who are willing to say that, so we have to keep going.
Robi Damelin: Well, I think anybody who belongs to the Parents Circle on the Palestinian side is already a leader. Because they're swimming against the tide. And the same thing is not happening in Israel. You know, before October 7th this government actually banned us from working in schools. It's insane. A Palestinian and an Israeli going into a school for the first time. These kids, age 17, meet a Palestinian Israeli kids. They've never met a Palestinian. So suddenly they hear a story of loss and of transformation and of looking for non-violence. And this is dangerous?
Craig Oliver: I'm incredibly sympathetic to the case that you are making and how do we find a way out of this cycle unless we can, you know, take the heat and the violence out of it?
I suppose what must be difficult for you is you are quite a small voice in all of this. It feels like that there are very, very loud voices on the other side and, and on both sides or all sides in this that are basically denying what you say is the truly sensible, sane thing to do. How do you cope with the fact that knowing that that is the reality of the situation now?
Robi Damelin: Well, I'll give you an example. The night before I left for the States, I had a Zoom. I called him Zoom and Glooms 'cause I can't pair Zooms, um, with many of the women, Palestinian women from our group. The very fact that they still came to the Zoom already tells you something. And I promised them that I would tell whoever, whatever audience I spoke to what it's like to live on the West Bank because you know, people are ignoring that
I promised them that I would tell everybody what it's like having your children stuck at home all the time since the 7th of October. Since some of the Hamas rockets actually hit the villages of Palestinians outside Bethlehem. You know, there are such extraordinary tales coming out of it. I live in Jafa in 2021, there was a war, and outside of my house there were all these riots and burning of cars. But this time the Palestinian Israelis and the Israelis got together and they made a committee for non-violence. There hasn't been an act of violence since the 7th of October, and that's many other mixed towns. So there are things that came out here that you have to tell these stories. The Bedouin who came from unrecognized villages to the music festival and saved so many of these kids, 19 of them, were killed of these Bedouin and some were taken hostage. There are these extraordinary stories, , and people must tell them.
Craig Oliver: I suppose, going back to the beginning of this conversation about South Africa, there must have been moments where people just thought, is this ever gonna get better? How can it get any worse? And, and then change happened, I suppose you've gotta hang on to that hope, but the question I wanted to ask you is, you talked about the zoom and glooms, and it's obvious that you go round using whatever opportunity you can to spread your message, talk to people, that must take its toll. How, how do you stand that? I mean, it's like relentlessly hearing pain. That's got to be just an extraordinary thing to have, to have that constant empathy. Does it not exhaust you?
Robi Damelin: Yes, of course. But I can give you a very good cure. You take a glass of whiskey and you take your cat and you put your cat on your heart and you listen to the Goldberg variations. What could be better than that?
Craig Oliver: That’s a pretty good way of handling it.
Robi Damelin: Well, you have to laugh also, by the way, because laughter, if I didn't laugh a lot and I didn't make other people laugh, it's a kind of bridge to the heart. And even in the most, obvious rooms who are angry with me and don't want me to, to even speak to them, if I make them laugh, it opens up the heart.
Craig Oliver: And what is there to laugh about?
Robi Damelin: Mad things, you know, it's just, I've watched some stupid, uh, Netflix comedy and I laugh and I laugh at myself too, you know, schlepping around the world from, I'm now going to Italy and then I'm going to a festival in Aspen. I don't know, I must be mad.
Craig Oliver: And going around the world, it's not just obviously what's going on in Israel, Gaza. You've met families from Columbine, Sandy Hook, lots of places around the world where truly terrible things have happened to the children of people, and they've had to come to terms with living a life where they've, they've lost someone that they love so dearly in such violent circumstances. How many people do you think, you know, roughly come to the conclusion that you come to? I mean, is it most of them that have experienced terrible things like this? Or is it the minority?
Robi Damelin: I think it's the minority. I think that people, the most natural reaction is to hit back. And only if you can get to the point where you understand that it's, there's no revenge. Don't think that I'm some kind of saint, I promise you. If I knew that I could do an act and I could spend one minute with David again, I would do it.
Craig Oliver: but I think that that's what's so extraordinary listening to you is the reality of that pain and the reality of that loss and still feeling it very, very acutely, but knowing that it would be worse if you didn't behave in the way
Robi Damelin: Well, this whole life that I've led since David died, I mean, who the hell am I? Just an Israeli mother who lost her child? You know, it doesn't give me special privileges in the world. But what has happened is that I'm almost, I can say grateful in many ways for the extraordinary opportunities I've had to spread a message and to watch other people be a part of transformation of other people's lives. Do you know what a gift that is?
Craig Oliver: This is a really difficult question. And I've asked it of quite a few people on this podcast who've been through extraordinary things. It's clear that you would never wish what happened to you on your worst enemy. But a lot of people who've been through extraordinary experiences like yours kind of also feel that they've just learned so much from it and that they're grateful for what they've learned. Are you able to do that? It sounds like you are having gratitude for the lessons you've learned because it gives you more wisdom and a more of a rounded sense of the world.
Robi Damelin: I would give anything not to have had all of this, but what happened happened, and I was, I'm grateful enough to know that I took my life to a place where I've met the most extraordinary people and learned the most extraordinary lessons.
Craig Oliver: So a big theme that we keep coming up against, is being grateful despite all the terrible things that happen, the other thing I think that we talk about quite a lot which I also hear reflected in a lot of your answers, is accepting that it has happened and it's real.
And not just letting that be completely defining of you as a person that actually you need to find acceptance in order to be able to build and move on. Is that something you recognize?
Robi Damelin: I recognize that in many cases, and now it's changed again. Life has changed since the 7th of October. But before, when you were a bereaved mother of a soldier, you became public property. You know, because it's such a small country and everybody's life is very intertwined here. Everybody knows somebody when it happens.
But it's different now. It's numbers. So I'm watching what's happening and, and it's heartbreaking to think who will remember the names of all of these children that died when I was at the United Nations at the Security Council. They kept talking about, there was a journalist called Shereen and she came from a wonderful family who actually joined the Parents Circle.
But sitting around that table at the United Nations and listening to all the self-righteous discussions only about Shereen, I then asked them, wait a minute. In 2021, 68 children died in Gaza. Do you know the name of one of them? That's the whole point about all these deaths for what? Who will remember all these people that died?
Now, every morning when I hear the announcement from the army of these young soldiers that are killed. Every day when I have the figures coming out of Gaza, it's heartbreaking.
Craig Oliver: And also that sense that there are other human beings out there who feel the pain. You feel. I think that that's just such an important point. It's a very obvious point, but that the absolute pain that you feel is felt by others and that that pain is terrible and should be avoided if possible, and can only be. Avoided if people like you say, enough.
Robi Damelin: A lot of the work that we're going to be doing now is to go and visit families who've lost so that they can tell their stories. Because I remember when David was killed, the people who brought me the most solace were other bereaved mothers because they actually understood. This is a role that we're gonna be playing now, which is not, not easy, I promise you, but it's part of the work that we are doing, and the miracle is that we are continuing to work.
So you ask me, you know, what gives me the strength to do this? It's listening to the women from our women's group. It's going to meet with families who are now joining our, our, forum and, and many other things that happen. We went to Georgetown University now because there's so much strife on all the campuses in America and also in England. And we are creating a module for students and for people to use all over the world because you can't believe how many people turn to the parents circle now because they're looking for some hope. And these students, have got so much energy and they want to do something, and so, you know, I have so many things happening. That gives me joy.
Craig Oliver: And we're coming to the end of our time together, Robi. The one question we always ask at the end is, if you had one piece of wisdom that you'd pass on to people from all the things you've learned, what would it be? What would yours be?
Robi Damelin: Learning to listen with empathy, even if you don't agree.
Craig Oliver: And tell us about that process.
Robi Damelin: You know, one of the processes that we do is a parallel narrative program where we take two professors, for instance of history, and each one would tell one Palestinian, one Israeli professor would tell the milestones of our history through their eyes.
So you'd have ‘48, ‘67, ‘73, the uprisings, Gulf War, whatever. How does each side see that? It's again, a parallel universe, but you learn to listen with empathy and then you begin to understand. How the other sees their history and then how it creates what they do and what they think. So it's listening with empathy.
Craig Oliver: And that seems to me to be a massive problem of the modern age, is that with social media, that we're increasingly in our own filter bubbles, where we just hear our version of reality reinforce time and time again and hear that the other side is wrong. And it, it's hearing what you are saying.
I'm just thinking, God, how do we ever overcome that? How we chip away? And I suppose what you would say is, well, you have to listen?
Robi Damelin: Well, if you listen to television and you listen to a panel, everybody's screaming at everybody so nobody can hear what the others saying anyway, so you know what's the point. So I discovered that if you don't shout and you speak quietly, sometimes people listen.
Craig Oliver: That's a really amazing point to leave it on, Robbie. It's been incredibly moving and powerful listening to you
Robi Damelin: Thank you.
Craig Oliver: Thank you for talking to us, but also thank you doing what you are doing. I think that it, the world needs more people like you who are willing to listen with empathy, and you are doing that beautifully and…
Robi Damelin: Thank you
Craig Oliver: Thank you for that.